Balance changes I'd like to see

In no particular order:

-All mortar accuracies increased. Mortar damage is reduced by ~25-40%, to reduce the chance of insta-gibbing a squad but allowing for consistent damage against a stationary target. This prevents those times when the enemy doesn't even notice your mortar but you still can't kill a deployed weapon crew, even with barrage + attack ground.

-Soviet scout car passengers take 25% damage from small arms fire, full damage from flamethrowers. You can increase scout car health by a bit to compensate. This prevents snipers from sitting in a car in the midst of a bunch of grens without munitions, just sniping them all.

-Maxim weapon crew size reduced by 2. Makes it harder for them to kill MG42s head on, and to reward flanking more.

-Rifle grenade damage made more consistent. You don't need to increase or decrease it, just average it out more. There's nothing more frustrating than burning your very small surplus of munitions early in the game to try to win a key fight against a Conscript squad, only to see the rifle grenade do no damage.

-SU-76 barrage duration decreased back to 60, has a 30 munitions cost.

-German Scout Car no longer useless against infantry once main gun is upgraded.

-T-70 damage against infantry reduced.

-Vehicle criticals have a chance of being fixed during repair, not only after being totally repaired. Chance increases as health gets closer to maximum.

-Have rifle grenades suck less against buildings.

-Reduce the defensive bonuses from infantry in buildings.

-Flammenwerfer halftrack damage reduced by ~20%. (if you take all the other weapon crew nerfs, it's not as important that it kill squads so fast)

-Reduce the chance of losing the flamethrower on a critical. Seriously, I feel like this happens all the time. Losing a flamer early in the game can be fatal, especially when combined with the defensive bonuses of infantry in buildings.

-Stugs should have their fuel requirement lowered by 30-40 and thus turned into a spammable AT tank, like a weaker version of the SU-85. It will fill a gap where it can drive off light vehicles (killing those dumb enough to stay) and provide a potential counter to T-34 Ram spam. Their low speed, poor maneuverability and subpar anti-infantry power will prevent it from being abused.

-Pak AT gun has its damage and/or penetration improved to actually be a threat to anything stronger than a light tank. Pak crew also needs an armor buff. Pak manpower cost reduced to ~275.

-German anti-personnel mines able to be built singly. No more signs.

-German Teller mines reduced in cost to 40, damage reduced by 25%. Pinning your hopes on a single mine right now is a bit silly, and they only really see use when the German player is far ahead already.

-Molotov initial damage increased moderately, damage over time decreased significantly, duration increased moderately. This will reward surprise, but won't kill a squad so quickly if the opponent doesn't notice or just has ridiculous squad AI that makes the models run into the fire. Also makes it more useful as an area denial weapon. The goal is to turn it into a weapon that flushes infantry from cover and deals good damage if the enemy isn't paying attention, but not a quick infantry killer.

-Hit the Dirt makes the squad take more damage from explosives and flamers.

-Germans can recrew weapons with two men.

-Panzergrenadiers damage reduced slightly, armor increased slightly. Makes them not such an instant Conscript shredding machine, while improving their survival chances (and thus spending less manpower to reinforce over the long run)

-IS-2 and Tiger buffed.

-Oorah duration and munition cost doubled. Makes it less spammable but improves the value when used.

-Ostwind penetration against tanks (not light vehicles) reduced.

-German tank veterancy requirements lowered slightly. Ostwinds in particular take crazy amounts of kills to vet up.

-German medkits cost halved, usable on self. There's virtually no reason to use them right now since there are medic bunkers and the cost is way too high for use in the field. Reducing the cost would help a lot.

-Conscript AT grenade damage improved against tanks.

-Retreat defensive bonuses doubled.

-A single panzerschrek purchasable on PGs for 75, or two for 120.

I miss anything?


tl;dr My goal was to improve underused units (scout car, Stug, etc.), reduce the overall factor of luck in critical situations (rifle grenades, flame crits, fewer squad kills, etc.), nerf anything that appeared to have no real drawback (Maxim, SU-76 barrage, HTD) and improve the maneuvering of units and rewarding flanking more (Oorah buff, Maxim weapon crew decrease).

All this + reduce strafing run durations by half and we'd have a better game on our hands, I think.

I like the T70 how it is now, like the m8 in vcoh you can use it very effectively to punish people who don't get enough AT or stay too long on T1, and I like it like that.

In vcoh you could get a Shrek if you only had 75mun and your Paks would cloak so they couldnt get circle strafed before firing a shot.

Like all the ideas but i would add a buff OR reduce the cost of the t 34-76 and for the love of god change the t34/85 to not be horribly expensive for such an easy to kill tank

I agree with most of these.

I wouldn't mind the stug being spammable, but I really liked when it ad a strong frontal armor. Make the sides thinner to compensate and suck its turn rate, and you've got yourself a nice assault gun.

Pathing problems aside (when being caught in a molotov blast), I think if the initial damage is increased and dmg over time decreased, the throwing animation should be a little bit shorter.

I would add that the ISU-152 needs to be nerfed.Its prohibitely expensive, but it wins against a Tiger 1v1, decimates any medium tank in around two shots, murders infantry faster than a KV-8, and it has the longest of all tank ranges in the game. Did I mention it stuns any tank regardless of vet, very often? I would simply nerf its reload rate to be slower, and decrease the stun critical chance to 1 in 5.

I dont think this solves the issue of Sniper in Scout cars because players who know what they are doing stay at max range and never even get close to Grens and adding 25% health that makes them even harder to kill.

Maxim also need a packup time

Russian AT also reduced to 4 men

I disagree on Molotov change they are already useless as they are SO easy to dodge.

German tank vet is fine as is IMO.

Stugs are fine as is, if the fuel cost was lower they could be spammed and make T34 even worse than it is now, if thats possible.

The P4 However given its current state needs a 20 fuel increase and the SU85 could do with the same.

The rest though doesnt look to bad.

I dont think this solves the issue of Sniper in Scout cars because players who know what they are doing stay at max range and never even get close to Grens and adding 25% health that makes them even harder to kill.

*Make Snipers in scout cars snipeable. Introduce the unintended bug/mechanic of vcoH: sniper fire kills two men instead of just one when inside scout cars/half tracks.

Someone would cry OP, but think about it: scout cars can already kill snipers by themselves, and getting a sniper out is a massive 360 investment early on. I think it'd make for some interesting cat and mouse.

I feel that if the Maxim gets a nerf it should be moved to tier 1 and the SC to tier 2, that way snipers in SC's cant happen unless both buildings are built. This would also address the issue of Germans HAVING to go t2 to counter a t1 unit and stop a t1 unit from giving the Russian player absolute dominance for a few minute period. This may also lead to some old school heavy t1 battles with 4 or so conscripts and a MG vs 4 or so Grens and a MG, much more entertaining than chasing a car around.

I agree on everything except

-German Scout Car no longer useless against infantry once main gun is upgraded

-Panzergrenadiers damage reduced slightly, armor increased slightly. Makes them not such an instant Conscript shredding machine, while improving their survival chances (and thus spending less manpower to reinforce over the long run)

-IS-2 and Tiger buffed.

-Oorah duration and munition cost doubled. Makes it less spammable but improves the value when used.

Let's start:

I think with point 1, that was what the Scout car was like in Alpha. If the 211 was effective against infantry upgunned, it would be a broken unit - it can counter all T1 and T2 of the Soviets. I find that the 211 when not upgunned is still very good against infantry. So, I agree with the trade-off between upgunning and not upgunning.

Point 2 - If PGs damage is reduced, they will lose against Shocks period. Already, they lose against shocks (which have the highest armour in the game) and this will mean that Sov Infantry >> German infantry by a long shot...

IS-2 and Tiger do not need a buff in terms of gameplay. They are very hard to kill if you use them properly. If you can name how they need a buff (IMO the fuel cost for IS-2 and Tiger is riduclous, but that's a different matter)

Point 4 - Oohrah duration doubled is even more "press and I win button" than it currently is. Muni doubling to 20 means nothing when you can almost certainly force a gren squad off during that time.

For unknown reasons the forum logged me out during my 20 minute long analysis of the suggested changes and I lost the entire text.

The only thing I really object to is the StuGs 30/40 fuel cheaper. This happened in the early Closed Beta and they were incredibly overused then as well as invalidating Russian T-3 completely. Also really hurts any Russian impact tank if StuGs come out quickly. They're already pretty cheap and decent when supported, which is a nice place for them in my view.

Most things I disagree with slightly. But:

IS-2/Tiger buff: definitely, Medkits: like useable on self. Currently they're a bit of a faff to actually employ, so I think they go underused. Don't think they need to be cheap enough to be useable regularly, just on that vet squad out on the fringes or the occasional low-health sniper/MG. Infantry defense in buildings, definitely.

Germans recrewing with 2 men - a recrewed pak/mortar with 2 men will be decrewed when one of them's lost.
HTD - just give a 3 to 5-second no-retreat period, that'll let you punish it.
Mines - someone came up with the suggestion of a customiseable Ostheer AI-mine spread in another thread, which would be excellent.

Though I dont agree with all your specific solution suggestions, I do agree with the underlying issues they are trying to correct 100% and think you have a very representational spectrum of the real quite serious core issues to be addressed listed here.

In vcoh you could get a Shrek if you only had 75mun and your Paks would cloak so they couldnt get circle strafed before firing a shot.

in vcoh you didnt get fausts that did engine damage near 100% of the time, and 1 shreck wouldnt do shit vs an upgunned m8. And the position of ATG is always really obvious cloak doesnt make much of a difference. The biggest change is lack of good cheap mines for WM.

I just think it's good for gameplay the way it is now. Nerfing eerything also tends to make things boring.

+1 very nice change list

I like the T70 how it is now, like the m8 in vcoh you can use it very effectively to punish people who don't get enough AT or stay too long on T1, and I like it like that.

i agree that punishing people who dont tech up is part of the game, but the t-70 leaves no german weapon team alive right now. it more requires you to have t3 vehicles out or munitions for an upgraded scout car (which isnt a t-70 killer per say but can stall the onslaught).

edit: although with the armor buffs on pak, might not need to nerf the t-70.

Thanks for the responses everyone. I'll try to reply to all the points people make to explain my reasoning.

On the T-70...

IMO, COH is all about decisions and reactions. Your opponent goes for one thing, you react by build a counter. Then you make the first step and build something else, and your opponent reacts. This is neat. It's much more about your choices then about your macro (e.g. SC2 where if you have enough "stuff" you can still defeat a more cost-efficient army).

However, I disagree with the general idea of luck in a strategy game, and I disagree with making the wrong choice (or being slow to choose it) losing you the game.

At it stands right now, if I did not have AT when a T-70 comes out, I don't think "man, this is going to suck", I think "man, this game is over because this thing is going to kill a couple of my squads". Even if you have a pak out it can't cover your entire army unless you're clustered together (which generally also means you have poor map control, which also means GG). I'm not saying nerf it into oblivion. I think it's stronger than the vCOH M8, and would be fine if it was just a bit weaker. I also added this to maybe help a bit:

-Retreat defensive bonuses doubled.
-A single panzerschrek purchasable on PGs for 75, or two for 120.

Another note on responding to opponent decisions- a major issue/feature of COH is that you can't really "scout" your opponent. If I'm German and I see slow capping early by the Soviet player, I have no idea if he's going clown car, sniper spam or Maxim spam. They require very different counters, but if I don't have a counter in place I could easily get knocked out in the first ten minutes of the game.

Medkits: like useable on self. Currently they're a bit of a faff to actually employ, so I think they go underused. Don't think they need to be cheap enough to be useable regularly, just on that vet squad out on the fringes or the occasional low-health sniper/MG.

Since Germans are so munition starved all the time, I don't think a cheaper med kit will be abused.

The only thing I really object to is the StuGs 30/40 fuel cheaper. This happened in the early Closed Beta and they were incredibly overused then as well as invalidating Russian T-3 completely. Also really hurts any Russian impact tank if StuGs come out quickly. They're already pretty cheap and decent when supported, which is a nice place for them in my view.

I think Stugs are not great against infantry already, but if necessary the main gun could be further nerfed. I really want to see it turn into a weak SU-85 (though the machine gun could still do some damage).

Germans recrewing with 2 men - a recrewed pak/mortar with 2 men will be decrewed when one of them's lost

Most of the time I don't recrew things in combat anyway, and I'd prefer the ability to grab it and retreat vs. leaving it in the field guarded by a 3 man Gren or PG squad.

Mines - someone came up with the suggestion of a customiseable Ostheer AI-mine spread in another thread, which would be excellent.

I've been avoiding making any suggestions that seem like they might require development work past adjusting values, since I have no idea how likely that will happen. While it'd be cool, it might be a pipe dream.

I dont think this solves the issue of Sniper in Scout cars because players who know what they are doing stay at max range and never even get close to Grens and adding 25% health that makes them even harder to kill.

I'm not trying to "solve" sniper + scout car, I'm just trying to make it more punishing if the opponent makes a mistake with it. Right now going sniper scout car will lose you a lot of map control early (especially if your opponent goes triple pio). Then after the sniper is out, you need about 15 kills to make it worth the cost assuming you don't kill any squads. That's okay. Germans can definitely go T2 and upgun a scout car to deal with it, and Russians deserve to get some impact out of their tech choice.

"I'm not trying to "solve" sniper + scout car, I'm just trying to make it more punishing if the opponent makes a mistake with it. Right now going sniper scout car will lose you a lot of map control early (especially if your opponent goes triple pio). Then after the sniper is out, you need about 15 kills to make it worth the cost assuming you don't kill any squads. That's okay. Germans can definitely go T2 and upgun a scout car to deal with it, and Russians deserve to get some impact out of their tech choice." - Adder

What you are saying is ok for 1v1 because yes map control is an issue but against good 2v2 teams who keep a conscript with AT nades (my partner and I always do) near the SC the German AC cant get close. The strat is very OP and the car needs a nerf not a health buff, you just shouldnt be able to shoot out of it, it should be a 'scout' car with maybe a gun upgrade for itself not a 'bren' wagon with a gun and transport ability.

Maybe you're right on the Medkit.

Thing with StuGs at the moment is they're 40 more MP than a T-34, same fuel cost (IIRC), good headon AT, a little AI capability + squishing (not much, but a pair of StuGs can roll a guard squad or something similar). Currently you can keep up more or less 1-1 on tank production with the T-34 if you have an even game, so I'm not sure they can't counter the Soviet T-3 well enough at the moment.

T-70 probably needs a downwards tweak to its infantry-killing on retreat but I'm not really sure a cheaper StuG is what's needed there. I think making it even cheaper in terms of fuel (esp. cheaper than the T-34) is just going to make Russian T-3 with its impact tanks unviable. In the early closed Beta they kind of had the role you're describing now, very cheap frontal AT with no AI, which I didn't much like personally.

My issue with the recrewing with 2 men is that it's even more situational than it currently is (i.e. good only if you want to run off with something while you're not under fire, in which case the 3-man steal is usually OK anyway).

Mines - yeah, absolutely : )

Maybe you're right on the Medkit.

Thing with StuGs at the moment is they're 40 more MP than a T-34, same fuel cost (IIRC), good headon AT, a little AI capability + squishing (not much, but a pair of StuGs can roll a guard squad or something similar). Currently you can keep up more or less 1-1 on tank production with the T-34 if you have an even game, so I'm not sure they can't counter the Soviet T-3 well enough at the moment.

T-70 probably needs a downwards tweak to its infantry-killing on retreat but I'm not really sure a cheaper StuG is what's needed there. I think making it even cheaper in terms of fuel (esp. cheaper than the T-34) is just going to make Russian T-3 with its impact tanks unviable. In the early closed Beta they kind of had the role you're describing now, very cheap frontal AT with no AI, which I didn't much like personally.

My issue with the recrewing with 2 men is that it's even more situational than it currently is (i.e. good only if you want to run off with something while you're not under fire, in which case the 3-man steal is usually OK anyway).

Mines - yeah, absolutely : )

The speed and AI capabilities of the T34 means that, although it may not be as good for AT as the StuG for a similar prize, the T34 pays for itself faster by killing enemy troops in the battlefield conditions it arrives at (the Stug will rarely destroy infantry as fast as a T34 does).

On mines..
BTW, im not sure if you are referring to my idea about german AP mines, but I had suggested the possibility to customize the german minefield on the go (it does need programming work, unfortunately). You basically drag the box/rectangle in the general shape and size you want it to be, and the game adjusts the cost based on the size of the area. It wouldn't be as versatile as the Soviet mine, which I still think has enormous advantages, but it would give creative germans some very nasty possibility for chokepoints and other environmental factors depending on the map.

Soviet mines are still king, though, because they deal TOO much damage to infantry for very little cost. They deal around 200 dmg, which is enough to instantly blow up a squad in the first minutes of the game. The reasoning being that it needs to do decent damage to vehicles, but if it doesnt doo at least 200 then its useless against them. vCoH mines were already perfect for both worlds. Its one of the mechanics I really wished would have stayed the same, but alas...