Panzer grenadiers are worthless without shreks upgrade

They are fine where they are. You guys talk about buffing their damage, health, accuracy, long range, received accuracy... seems like some people just want old terminators back that has AI and AT roles.

Imagine your suggestions of increased health. The consequences are they could probably beat most allied tanks, which a lot of people who get 2 squads already do as is. If you increase the long range capability, you're just replacing grenadiers.

Sir,

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Sir,

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No more than you man.

No, ostheer HAS Elite troops, is just that these elite troops are not quite elite . And I'm talking about stormtroopers. The stormtroopers need some kind of buff and I don't see a reason for which they can't receive it. They are to be found in just 2 doctrines, are expensive, and a 4 men squad, that can receive expensive upgrades. I realy don't understand why they can't be upgraded with the second shreck, for instance. I think the idea is that they should - through upgrades - become an AI specialized unit, or an AT specialized unit. Upgrading them just one shreck, does not transform them into a specialized AT unit, but into a verry mediocre one.

Related to Pzgrenadiers, I agree they should worth the investment, and if not more survivability, at least they could use a little more AI punch if not upgraded with shrecks.

Edit: Or, make them vet faster.

There is your answer. Stormtrooper is PG unupgraded and not as useful as, say Rangers or Para.

And PG is meh.

Just add in veterancy increased bulletin and you are golden!

then why not just 3x Grenadiers rifle cooldown 5%?

And now 6 men Shocktroops cost 8 pop while 4 men Pgrens cost 9 pop. lol

Edit, the only annoying thing is they always huddle, makes it being wiped out frequently by AOE weapons.

PG's need to lose med kits at vet 1 (useless), and have their received accuracy at vet 2 split between vet 1 and 2. This would help them feel like they are getting better before vet 2.

Otherwise fine unit. Upgrade with shreks if you are facing an opponent investing heavily in SU76's or medium tanks.

Im so sick of people saying "pgrens are the best medium range units, just stay at medium range"

Medium range is the worst distance to be a expert at. You basicly has zero control over your position and unable to manipulate the field to your advantage...

Whats worse is they are squishy and lose 25% of their total dps when the first model drops and all it takes is sneeze at them for one die.

Problem with pgrens has always been relics decision to have shreks being laser accurate at long range which lead to pgren shrek blobs killing everything. Why they didn't implement the shrek like it was in vcoh is beyond me but hey its lelic...

Pgrens are awesome, I don't understand why some people have trouble with them. They become monsters once they reach vet 2, and whenever I use them it feels like people underestimate how much damage they can do in a short time.

I don't think they need a change, but if they are to get one I would move some of the vet2 received accuracy bonus onto the stock unit to help with their low health without vet.

So weak...

From 4 kills to 18 kills in one assault.

So weak...

From 4 kills to 18 kills in one assault.

Standing in front of the wall without cover had me raging so hard.

So weak...

From 4 kills to 18 kills in one assault.

Well yeah..beating guards low health and then grens in green cover vs conscripts...do that vs USF or UKF please..also just try to stay in gren cover next to IS in gren cover..They will still lose..I flanked a lot Is and come in close range and still lost the engagement...

If you increase the long range capability, you're just replacing grenadiers.

Which is kind of the point. I spend additional 100mp to have better infantry. Currently Grens "replace" PGs. In the last 50 Ostheer games I played, I estimate the times I built PGs to be around 5 games. And those were some Osttruppen spam games.

But building PGs instead of additional LMG Grens in close games can lose you the game.

So weak...

From 4 kills to 18 kills in one assault.

You come with such an old video. It was posted like... 3 months ago or more around here?
And it only proves that the russian player didn't know how to use his units.

You come with such an old video. It was posted like... 3 months ago or more around here?
And it only proves that the russian player didn't know how to use his units.

Yeah, because PGs got so many nerfs since then, right?

Oh wait, its tommies that got all the nerfs!

Well yeah..beating guards low health and then grens in green cover vs conscripts...do that vs USF or UKF please..also just try to stay in gren cover next to IS in gren cover..They will still lose..I flanked a lot Is and come in close range and still lost the engagement...

Happens way too much on the fourms.

Well yeah..beating guards low health and then grens in green cover vs conscripts...do that vs USF or UKF please..also just try to stay in gren cover next to IS in gren cover..They will still lose..I flanked a lot Is and come in close range and still lost the engagement...

And that's the thing. You don't flank and you dont go close range. They are not shocks

When I need AI, I make sure my grens have LMGS.

If I need schreks I have to spend 340 manpower, invest 120 munitions, and end up with a 4 man squad that needs to have AI support.

A choice has to be made with Panzergrenadiers on what role they are going to play: AI or AT. And that's a one way road. With schreks, their entire play style changes. Who think that the most effective use of schreks is at mid range, in cover? No one, because the schreks already destroyed the cover.

Remember, Ostheer is designed around the MG42 and supporting it. Using Pgrens to defend against flanking pushes on MG42s is where they shine. Problem is, that's the role Grens will already have been excelling at.

Which is kind of the point. I spend additional 100mp to have better infantry. Currently Grens "replace" PGs. In the last 50 Ostheer games I played, I estimate the times I built PGs to be around 5 games. And those were some Osttruppen spam games.

But building PGs instead of additional LMG Grens in close games can lose you the game.

No, grenadiers cannot replace panzergrenadiers. They do not have the option to get 2 panzershreks. You want them to be stronger? How about removing their shrek upgrade? Basically all it sounds like is you want a fallschimjager. Fine, that's fine by me. Take one or the other. 2 shreks or pure anti infantry. Grenadiers cannot replace panzergrenadiers AT ability. Buffing panzergrenadiers without any nerfs will allow them to effectively kill tanks and infantry. Back to blobbing? Only counter is arty?

I do not see panzergrenadiers as AI counter. I would just build grenadiers for that. If I need to counter vehicles, flank mobile artillery, or destroy caches, it's a lot safer to use panzergrenadiers instead of letting my expensive tank roll over a mine. It is a support unit and that's how I would play it.

Imagine the halftrack call-in with a long range buff on panzergrenadiers... I would just see them ROFLstomping infantry at range and mop up. Isn't that why snipers can't enter M3s anymore?

No, grenadiers cannot replace panzergrenadiers. They do not have the option to get 2 panzershreks. You want them to be stronger? How about removing their shrek upgrade? Basically all it sounds like is you want a fallschimjager.

This kind of misses the point of the thread. "Without Panzerschrecks they have no use" is the essence of this topic. You say they have use because they have Panzerschrecks. I don´t deny that. But that´s pretty much the only thing they are good for. And that is the point.

Fine, that's fine by me. Take one or the other. 2 shreks or pure anti infantry. Grenadiers cannot replace panzergrenadiers AT ability. Buffing panzergrenadiers without any nerfs will allow them to effectively kill tanks and infantry. Back to blobbing? Only counter is arty?

Two PG models with StG44s won´t be deadly at all. I´m not suggesting to make them snipers, but the drop off of the StG44 should be reduced. So they are still on par with Kar98k damage on long range.

I do not see panzergrenadiers as AI counter. I would just build grenadiers for that. If I need to counter vehicles, flank mobile artillery, or destroy caches, it's a lot safer to use panzergrenadiers instead of letting my expensive tank roll over a mine. It is a support unit and that's how I would play it.

The funny thing is that a Pak + Gren wall is still more cost efficient at taking out tanks than any combination of PGs.

I´m sorry but as a pretty high leveled Ostheer player I can tell you if I want to win a game, I´m not building PGs. And I never ever build them for their AI value.

This kind of misses the point of the thread. "Without Panzerschrecks they have no use" is the essence of this topic. You say they have use because they have Panzerschrecks. I don´t deny that. But that´s pretty much the only thing they are good for. And that is the point.

Two PG models with StG44s won´t be deadly at all. I´m not suggesting to make them snipers, but the drop off of the StG44 should be reduced. So they are still on par with Kar98k damage on long range.

The funny thing is that a Pak + Gren wall is still more cost efficient at taking out tanks than any combination of PGs.

I´m sorry but as a pretty high leveled Ostheer player I can tell you if I want to win a game, I´m not building PGs. And I never ever build them for their AI value.

Your pak + gren wall is situational. You must know where they're coming from and LoS. Let's just say 1 pak + 2 grens, 240x2 + 320 vs 2 panzergrens, 340x2. Here comes 1 sherman tank with HE round. If he comes forward in, you can get off an AT shot and then a snare. Okay it wins. If it flanks... well 1st faust won't snare it. I'm not sure if second one is. However, smoke the AT gun, kill the infantry or smoke the infantry and kill the AT gun. 2 panzergrens can just shoot it on site at any direction reduce HP to instant say 30% HP if not 0. If they are smoke prior, they can just walk out and continue to shoot and not have to set up like an AT gun would.

Panzergrenadiers are more versatile and both strategies work better in different scenarios. Thus, they are separate units with slightly different usage. Why is volks blob preferred instead of rakuten blob? well, it is more versatile. It can deal with infantry alright and shoot at vehicles as well.

Like I said, buff panzergrenadiers all you want if you want them to be AI specific. Buffing them along with panzershrek will spell another blob. If you want to keep AT option, with unit buff, i'd nerf that shrek to a panzerbusche like the ones you see in ToW. (similar to AT rifle)