Time for Statistics

not saying it is THE reason, just saying it is ONE reason... Kübel capping everywhere is just damn strong (Assault Jeep in COHO anyone?!). the popcap ofc helped as well, but isn't too much of a factor early game, where the game swings in OKWs favor heavily (from my experience, haven't played a lot this patch though, so take this and the rest with a grain of salt). with kübel capping and denying fuel from opponent it enables OKW to get out Luchs or other light vehicles super fast, so the opponent has to go early AT instead of more infantry and probably play a little more defensive, giving up more mapcontrol and enabling the OKW player to tech up faster. roughly at this point is where the popcap issues start being problematic.

all of this, and the fact that allied players probably were very used to just spamming inf with anti-infantry upgrades early and never having to get any AT until mid game at the earliest is what caused the winrate spike for OKW in my opinion.

guess this is stuff for another thread though.

Making mistakes against OKW is now very punishing. If you lose ground, you can bet they will start fortifying it, allowing them to get a fuel + VP all but begs for them to put flacktrack on it and deny it to you. Allow them to gain muni, you're going to have 4+ shrecks running around shortly. Lose the fuel war, you might as well quit the game because you're going to be absolutely hammered with fast Luchs, panther and/or KT.

Meanwhile the OKW player floats so much manpower he can replace losses, has infantry that is so versatile (tough + decent rifle damage + shreck + free grenade) and comparatively cheap that they can beat and/or outcap you, skilled Kubel play is a complete headache in the first 5 minutes of the game, and the fact that their teching is cheap and requires no side upgrades means they quickly unlock their potent arsenal.

OKW is OP. There's really no way around it. Does it mean they need to again be nerfed into the ground, no, but they need nerfs. Popcap being the most urgent, then we can look at problematic units like Volks, Panther and KT. I don't believe the Luchs needs a nerf, albeit Relic's decision to remove the ressource penalty while not touching vehicle costs in any way is still a monumental blunder. You can't just toss away such a core faction mechanic and not worry about the potential problems it brings.

with kübel capping and denying fuel from opponent it enables OKW to get out Luchs or other light vehicles super fast, so the opponent has to go early AT instead of more infantry and probably play a little more defensive, giving up more mapcontrol and enabling the OKW player to tech up faster.

In fact players are not used to play defensively with allied and they refuse to adapt;
Secondly, players continue to use no-brainer tactics and they wonder why they lose. Assuming from the verry beginning that you will face a fast Pz2 is the right way? What if OKW player starts with Medic truck? Is it worth to invest in a fast AT??

all of this, and the fact that allied players probably were very used to just spamming inf with anti-infantry upgrades early and never having to get any AT until mid game at the earliest is what caused the winrate spike for OKW in my opinion.

Which again means lack of adaptation. Being used to go the "easy way" spam spam spam, everything from maxim to penals, from riflemen to REs and such, crushing with an overwhelming power every infantry they meet early game.
And I wonder: are the bazookas gone from weapon racks? Are the guards not available anymore? The PTRS is not shooting anymore? Hell, what happened to the "ouraaaa" + At grenade? To the dirt cheap soviet mines available form minute 1?

And I wonder: are the bazookas gone from weapon racks? Are the guards not available anymore? The PTRS is not shooting anymore? Hell, what happened to the "ouraaaa" + At grenade? To the dirt cheap soviet mines available form minute 1?

The main reason OKW is successful right now is because players are investing more in the earlier stages of the game. Seeing a lot of ~4 volks (with schrecks), 1-2 elite infantry (sturm, falls, jaeger light) with MG34/ISG support and a raketen or two for good measure before being followed up with pzIV/panther.


A lot of allied builds are still under-investing in their mad dash for a light shock vehicle and they're paying for it.

In fact players are not used to play defensively with allied and they refuse to adapt;
Secondly, players continue to use no-brainer tactics and they wonder why they lose. Assuming from the verry beginning that you will face a fast Pz2 is the right way? What if OKW player starts with Medic truck? Is it worth to invest in a fast AT???

Fast Luchs is a reality you can't deny as Allied. We are not talking about Ostheer which have the pak naturally available at T2 or OKW raken T0 + shreck.
If you are not foreseeing the Luchs with the appropriate counter ready, you simply lose the game when its pop in the field.

You don't have the denial area support of HMG combined with sniper or mortar + sdfk 251 to reinforce on the field + the pak
You don't have the Regiment HQ healing and reinforcing close to the frontline supported by volks+shreck and a hidden Raken while you cap/deny the other part of the map with your Kubel.

Hell, as USF you don't even have cheap stock mines to cover your flanks.

If you play both side, you know how to play defensive and offensive with factions so adaptation isn't the problem. The problem is the lack of tools. Allied factions, except UKF, aren't mean to be played defensively, it is just that you don't have the tools for and at the end you also don't have the late game power to reverse the pressure.

If you are not foreseeing the Luchs with the appropriate counter ready, you simply lose the game when its pop in the field.

As opposed to the allied light vehicle rush?

Allies have weapon racks (bazooka/piat), t2 ATG (brits/Sov.), early mines etc etc etc.

There's lots of options, you don't have to neuter your build by preemptively building double AT guns or shit like that. Scouting your opponent can also help a ton, you don't need to divine the luchs you just need to check if he's got a medic truck or a mech truck.

The difference is germans have learned how to deal with light vehicles, while allies have apparently not given how many people don't know they can build bazookas/PIATs.

Fast Luchs is a reality you can't deny as Allied. We are not talking about Ostheer which have the pak naturally available at T2 or OKW raken T0 + shreck.
If you are not foreseeing the Luchs with the appropriate counter ready, you simply lose the game when its pop in the field.

You don't have the denial area support of HMG combined with sniper or mortar + sdfk 251 to reinforce on the field + the pak
You don't have the Regiment HQ healing and reinforcing close to the frontline supported by volks+shreck and a hidden Raken while you cap/deny the other part of the map with your Kubel.

Hell, as USF you don't even have cheap stock mines to cover your flanks.

If you play both side, you know how to play defensive and offensive with factions so adaptation isn't the problem. The problem is the lack of tools. Allied factions, except UKF, aren't mean to be played defensively, it is just that you don't have the tools for and at the end you also don't have the late game power to reverse the pressure.

I realy try to understand what you are saying.
So let me get this straight:
As USF: You don't have tools for countering a fast Luchs though you could tech directly to captain and/or go for zooks as you verry first upgrade, not to mention the AT grenade won at xp1 by the Riflemen. All of these combined cannot lure away / counter a Luchs? If you upgrade your RE / Riflemen with zooks are they gonna be that bad against volks?! They really need BARS or HMGs, AA or M20 support against them??

As Soviets: You can't upgrade the AT grenade? You can't start with T2 and build a ZIS? You can't place a mine? Cons need that Molotov right from beginning so badly against OKW?

All of these mean no counter?

Ok, let's say that you can't counter a Luchs with all of these. Let's assume that. Then a delay for Luchs should fix the problem, isn't it?

As opposed to the allied light vehicle rush?

Allies have weapon racks (bazooka/piat), t2 ATG (brits/Sov.), early mines etc etc etc.

There's lots of options, you don't have to neuter your build by preemptively building double AT guns or shit like that. Scouting your opponent can also help a ton, you don't need to divine the luchs you just need to check if he's got a medic truck or a mech truck.

The difference is germans have learned how to deal with light vehicles, while allies have apparently not given how many people don't know they can build bazookas/PIATs.

Who is going to build 2 ATguns to counter a Luchs? What the point going to extreme silly builds to denature my words.
In the fast Luchs, the problem isn't the Luchs alone but the all around. Shreck+flamnade+numeros volks+Kubel+Sturms (for no fuel cost) and the Luchs.
Before facing the Luchs you need to face a powerful OKW early game, and to face it, you must invest in tools. The game isn't balanced around USF or Sov being able to defeat early OKW just by spamming Cons or RM, even more since Volks and Sturm has been buffed and Kubel turned into a super fast harass unit. So you must invest in fuel tools, like early light vehicle or suppression or healing, grenades etc...

The problem comes to the Luchs because what you invested to counter OKW early is naturally countered and wiped by the Luch.

This is why people, like me, want side tech for OKW, or whatever mp/fuel sink for OKW early game. If as OKW you want a powerful early game, you invest on it and delay your midgame. If you want a fast Luch, your early game will not be so powerful.

As USF, if I want a fast M15, I don't have nade/heal/BARs/Zooks, my early game is weaker
As Sov, same happens if I want an early T70

In fact players are not used to play defensively with allied and they refuse to adapt;
Secondly, players continue to use no-brainer tactics and they wonder why they lose. Assuming from the verry beginning that you will face a fast Pz2 is the right way? What if OKW player starts with Medic truck? Is it worth to invest in a fast AT??

Lol, please. if you're talking about no-brainer tactics speak no further. Volk spam, obers spam, isg spam, fallschims, until a vehicle of your choosing. Axis spams and wins currently.


Which again means lack of adaptation. Being used to go the "easy way" spam spam spam, everything from maxim to penals, from riflemen to REs and such, crushing with an overwhelming power every infantry they meet early game.
And I wonder: are the bazookas gone from weapon racks? Are the guards not available anymore? The PTRS is not shooting anymore? Hell, what happened to the "ouraaaa" + At grenade? To the dirt cheap soviet mines available form minute 1?

REs just got nerfed... their reinforcement cost as much as riflemen... bazookas is a side upgrade that prevents teching up to say an MG or light vehicle... limits build
Guards is doctrinal... that limits commander pick
conscripts and AT grenade is a side unlock again... limiting builds
mines require foresight and depends on enemies' actions.

Shrek spam is a more versatile AT option since it can be re used and is mobile, AI, and grenade.
I do not see OKW using sturms to spam mines everywhere... just shrek spam.

If you're talking refusal to adapt... why don't I see players not get shreks? that would be a first.

Currently 15 wins/0 losses as OKW

Guess OKW was OP after all... Sorry guys.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/46070/december-10th-hotfix

/thread

REs just got nerfed... their reinforcement cost as much as riflemen... bazookas is a side upgrade that prevents teching up to say an MG or light vehicle... limits build
Guards is doctrinal... that limits commander pick
conscripts and AT grenade is a side unlock again... limiting builds
mines require foresight and depends on enemies' actions.

Shrek spam is a more versatile AT option since it can be re used and is mobile, AI, and grenade.
I do not see OKW using sturms to spam mines everywhere... just shrek spam.

If you're talking refusal to adapt... why don't I see players not get shreks? that would be a first.

Currently 15 wins/0 losses as OKW

All that you mentioned here above are options and not limitations. These options helps you to adapt and react to what your opponent is doing.
If you picked T1 build with penals and sniper, you pick the molotov upgrade right from the start, and so on, while your enemy rusehs a PZ 2, that is your choice.

And by the way, sturmpios can mine now because OKW has a proper amo income. If a player use amo just for shrecks, just for mines or both, is his option.

I see no problem here.

All that you mentioned here above are options and not limitations. These options helps you to adapt and react to what your opponent is doing.
If you picked T1 build with penals and sniper, you pick the molotov upgrade right from the start, and so on, while your enemy rusehs a PZ 2, that is your choice.

And by the way, sturmpios can mine now because OKW has a proper amo income. If a player use amo just for shrecks, just for mines or both, is his option.

I see no problem here.

I'm sorry you don't play enough to see the imbalance. And that is exactly why there was a hotfix patch against OKW yesterday. GG

You're telling an allies player to build side upgrades to "react" to Axis build. So as an Allies player I have to think about what an Axis player builds. But as OKW, it's okay just to blob volks? I just click panzershrek upgrade if I see vehicles? So much for foresight and adaptability.

Bringing this thread back a bit since we've had a weekend to collect win rate data after the dec 10th hotfix. The first thing I noticed is that even though people say that 1v1 was "almost perfect," the dec 10th changes brought OKW down from a .78 winrate to an average of .65, which is still 2nd or 3rd highest among the 5 factions. It really just goes to show that there is always room for improvement and "almost perfect" might not be as perfect as we think it might mean.

The patch did wonders for 2v2 balance as well, bringing OKW from a whopping ~.88 winrate to .667, which is still highest among the 5 factions, but it's within acceptable parameters. Really, I think the patch helped 1v1 and 2v2 the most out of everything.

3v3 and 4v4 saw improvements as well. Axis still top, but the difference is no longer crushingly staggering. Interestingly enough, UKF spiked to highest winrate in 4v4 for today. Why?

What are your guys' thoughts? Thumbs up or thumbs down for dec 10 changes? For me, definite thumbs up.

The Hotfix is an improvement (thanks Relic).
However: Since cost of units reflects performance, why not increase the cost of OKW T4 and adjust vehicle prices accordingly?
I suggest changing Schwerer costs from 120 to 175 FU, P4 cost from 150 to 140FU, P5 cost from 200 to 180FU, KT cost from 310 to 280FU and giving it a 14CP lock.

OKW is is still pretty strong, but now the stats are in a much more realistic place. They dropped in 1v1 first day but then popped right back the next day, most likely due to inflation.

I have no idea what caused the huge brit rise in 4v4 though. It's not even reflected in 3v3 like most the 4v4 statistics are. Most likely just a random spike inflated further by inflated by the balance changes. Perhaps returning players to the faction as well.

The Hotfix is an improvement (thanks Relic).
However: Since cost of units reflects performance, why not increase the cost of OKW T4 and adjust vehicle prices accordingly?
I suggest changing Schwerer costs from 120 to 175 FU, P4 cost from 150 to 140FU, P5 cost from 200 to 180FU, KT cost from 310 to 280FU and giving it a 14CP lock.

1: Coming back after losing the flak HQ would go from hard to outright impossible

2: The problem was rate of armor being produced not the timing of the armor, changing tech timing doesn't help that

The inflated fuel costs are the best solution. OKW was already built around the idea of having to pay more for their tanks and it works. There is no rule that unit's price needs to reflect it's performance and changing it for OCD reasons is stupid.

Bringing this thread back a bit since we've had a weekend to collect win rate data after the dec 10th hotfix. The first thing I noticed is that even though people say that 1v1 was "almost perfect," the dec 10th changes brought OKW down from a .78 winrate to an average of .65, which is still 2nd or 3rd highest among the 5 factions. It really just goes to show that there is always room for improvement and "almost perfect" might not be as perfect as we think it might mean.

The patch did wonders for 2v2 balance as well, bringing OKW from a whopping ~.88 winrate to .667, which is still highest among the 5 factions, but it's within acceptable parameters. Really, I think the patch helped 1v1 and 2v2 the most out of everything.

3v3 and 4v4 saw improvements as well. Axis still top, but the difference is no longer crushingly staggering. Interestingly enough, UKF spiked to highest winrate in 4v4 for today. Why?


What are your guys' thoughts? Thumbs up or thumbs down for dec 10 changes? For me, definite thumbs up.

i noticed the same things you did. i am wondering why myself. perhaps the data will normalize in a week, although some of those winrates are still staggering

Bringing this thread back a bit since we've had a weekend to collect win rate data after the dec 10th hotfix. The first thing I noticed is that even though people say that 1v1 was "almost perfect," the dec 10th changes brought OKW down from a .78 winrate to an average of .65, which is still 2nd or 3rd highest among the 5 factions. It really just goes to show that there is always room for improvement and "almost perfect" might not be as perfect as we think it might mean.

The patch did wonders for 2v2 balance as well, bringing OKW from a whopping ~.88 winrate to .667, which is still highest among the 5 factions, but it's within acceptable parameters. Really, I think the patch helped 1v1 and 2v2 the most out of everything.

3v3 and 4v4 saw improvements as well. Axis still top, but the difference is no longer crushingly staggering. Interestingly enough, UKF spiked to highest winrate in 4v4 for today. Why?

What are your guys' thoughts? Thumbs up or thumbs down for dec 10 changes? For me, definite thumbs up.

I'm not sure, it is better than it was but would be good to wait awhile before saying much. In team games, teams with several OKW still seem to start fast but the cost nerfs have hurt it in longer games. I've only played one 1v1 and it was as USF against OST. The OST player had some extreme RNG go against him so I couldn't tell much, other than I probably wouldn't have wanted to be his keyboard or desk during the match.

I'd guess that the big difference in 4v4 win rates is that most random teams will have at least one player quit if they're tripple-capped early which seems to happen a lot to allies.

OKW is is still pretty strong, but now the stats are in a much more realistic place. They dropped in 1v1 first day but then popped right back the next day, most likely due to inflation.

I have no idea what caused the huge brit rise in 4v4 though. It's not even reflected in 3v3 like most the 4v4 statistics are. Most likely just a random spike inflated further by inflated by the balance changes. Perhaps returning players to the faction as well.

The huge spike was done with a total of only 32 games played. It was most likely done by just a couple good players who figured out how to be competitive.

Now is playing axis easy as shit.

Stats dont lie, fanboys can.