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russian armor

KV-1 need buff

23 Nov 2015, 12:23 PM
#1
avatar of Socrates

Posts: 40

Right now, this tank is just garbage. Slow movement speed, innacurate main gun, shreks and all axis cannons (pak-40, pz4 gun, stug 3 etc) still penetrates with each shot KV-1's armor even with two armor bulletins (+7 armor, if my memory is correct).
It is a just tougher version of T-34 (640 vs 800 HP, 270 vs around 150 armor) with no role on battlefield.
Ideas to fix this:
1. Buff gun accuracy. From now, tank can't hit infantry efectively, misses every shot.
2. Buff armor to 300 OR hitpoints to 960 (+1 PAK shot).

Any suggestions or feedback, from OKW/Ostheer players too, are welcome.:snfAmi:



sorry for my english, btw
23 Nov 2015, 12:25 PM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

OR, now listen carefully, GIVE IT GARDENING HEAVY TANK VET instead of this bullshit T34 vet.

And even 80 hp buff would go a long way for the units validity, atm it can take as many penning shots as T34/85 or ez8.
23 Nov 2015, 12:36 PM
#3
avatar of robertmikael
Donator 11

Posts: 311

My suggestion is to move this tank to tier 4, and give the commander that has this tank some other heavy tank that is better. There are lot of options.
23 Nov 2015, 12:37 PM
#4
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 12:25 PMKatitof
OR, now listen carefully, GIVE IT GARDENING HEAVY TANK VET instead of this bullshit T34 vet.

And even 80 hp buff would go a long way for the units validity, atm it can take as many penning shots as T34/85 or ez8.

Heavy tanks vet?
23 Nov 2015, 12:39 PM
#5
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


Heavy tanks vet?


Vet bonuses.

KV-1 vet bonuses are exactly the same as it was a medium tank.

Meanwhile panther gets extra armor and hp. Won't compare to churchill, because its bonuses are quite peculiar and suitable in the context of the unit.

Survivability oriented vet for KV based on durability instead of mobility would go a long way.
23 Nov 2015, 12:45 PM
#6
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 12:39 PMKatitof


Vet bonuses.

KV-1 vet bonuses are exactly the same as it was a medium tank.

Meanwhile panther gets extra armor and hp. Won't compare to churchill, because its bonuses are quite peculiar and suitable in the context of the unit.

Survivability oriented vet for KV based on durability instead of mobility would go a long way.


right or we could buff its HP/Armor

the only thing that should be changed with vet should be this stupid capture mode
23 Nov 2015, 12:53 PM
#7
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 12:39 PMKatitof

Vet bonuses.
KV-1 vet bonuses are exactly the same as it was a medium tank.


Incorrect.

Heavy tank vet (Tiger, King Tiger, KV2, IS2, Pershing, KV1, Pershing, Comet, Churchill)=

Vet 2: Increased turret rotation, increased range (+5), increased ROF.
None of the multirole heavy tanks get armor or HP at this level (or at any vet level).

Vet 3: Increased accuracy, increased mobility, increased ROF. Newer vehicles tend to get a grenade ability at Vet 2 or 3 as well.

Tanks that get more HP / Armor with vet:
P4, JP4, Panther, Brummbar, Sturmtiger, Stug. None of these are heavy tanks.

23 Nov 2015, 13:44 PM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

@Strummingbird you still should see my point.

KV-1 vet bonuses completely do not support nor enhance KV-1 role.
What its supposed to be? MBT? Damage sponge? Flanker?

Its stats and vet indicate all at once, jack of all trades, sucks equally in everything.
23 Nov 2015, 13:47 PM
#9
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Incorrect.

Heavy tank vet (Tiger, King Tiger, KV2, IS2, Pershing, KV1, Pershing, Comet, Churchill)=

Vet 2: Increased turret rotation, increased range (+5), increased ROF.
None of the multirole heavy tanks get armor or HP at this level (or at any vet level).

Vet 3: Increased accuracy, increased mobility, increased ROF. Newer vehicles tend to get a grenade ability at Vet 2 or 3 as well.

Tanks that get more HP / Armor with vet:
P4, JP4, Panther, Brummbar, Sturmtiger, Stug. None of these are heavy tanks.




I guess his point was that KV1 is damage sponge (so it should have vet increasing this role on battlefield), while every single tank you mentioned (maybe ecept Churchill) is very powerful tank, not just damage sponge, that's why they recevie various offensive vets instead of durability vets.
23 Nov 2015, 13:52 PM
#10
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1


I guess his point was that KV1 is damage sponge (so it should have vet increasing this role on battlefield), while every single tank you mentioned (maybe ecept Churchill) is very powerful tank, not just damage sponge, that's why they recevie various offensive vets instead of durability vets.


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 13:44 PMKatitof
@Strummingbird you still should see my point.


The justification behind his/your point is wrong. The KV1 is quite lackluster, so instead of giving it strong vet bonuses to totally screw up the cost / performance ratio when just called in versus after vet 2/3, why not just give it a flat buff to some aspect and call it a day? If anything, the vet 1 bonus should be the one to change to something more apt (same goes for all Soviet heavy tanks), not the other vet levels.

eg. 960HP 290 armor, slightly reduced speed, change CP and cost to match, limit to 1 if necessary, vet mode = toggle to increased ROF at cost of speed.
23 Nov 2015, 14:10 PM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


eg. 960HP 290 armor, slightly reduced speed, change CP and cost to match, limit to 1 if necessary, vet mode = toggle to increased ROF at cost of speed.


See, that is the thing that I see as potentially huge problem.

I don't see it becoming as potent as churchill in being a damage sponge, but its cannon pretty much guarantees that delaying it will make it even less appealing, limiting it to 1 without it either changing into soviet churchill or making its main gun at least mercilessly murder infantry doesn't really make any sense.

Scaling is one of the methods to keep its timing, but improve it on the long run if you keep it life, hell even minor stuff like vet1 changed to 80 hp bonus would go a long way.

The unit have no role, its non spammable T34/76 that needs to flank to do damage but can't because of mobility problems.
23 Nov 2015, 14:30 PM
#12
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

What is actually a "damage sponge"?
A tank that can do nothing but take beating from enemy AT?
What prevents enemy from manually targeting your other vehicles?
23 Nov 2015, 14:40 PM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

What is actually a "damage sponge"?
A tank that can do nothing but take beating from enemy AT?
What prevents enemy from manually targeting your other vehicles?

A tank that can take more then your average med tank and fight accordingly to its cost.
KV-1 isn't one for sure with current hp values and its shitty gun, I don't see the gun being improved, which leaves hp/armor values. Biggest problem of the tank is, it doesn't belong to the "war era" the multiplayer is on.

Thing is, for some reason relic is extremely stubborn on giving soviets POS outdated units and expecting them to perform well vs 1944-45 rooster of axis armies.

Irregulars were so bad they had to be removed from the game.
Partisans are barely useable.
M-42 anyone? Does someone remember how does it look?
T34/76 vs 34/85
KV-2 up until previw(likely after it as well, haven't checked it yet).
23 Nov 2015, 14:47 PM
#14
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1063

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 14:40 PMKatitof

A tank that can take more then your average med tank and fight accordingly to its cost.
KV-1 isn't one for sure with current hp values and its shitty gun, I don't see the gun being improved, which leaves hp/armor values. Biggest problem of the tank is, it doesn't belong to the "war era" the multiplayer is on.

Thing is, for some reason relic is extremely stubborn on giving soviets POS outdated units and expecting them to perform well vs 1944-45 rooster of axis armies.

Irregulars were so bad they had to be removed from the game.
Partisans are barely useable.
M-42 anyone? Does someone remember how does it look?
T34/76 vs 34/85
KV-2 up until previw(likely after it as well, haven't checked it yet).

Don't forget poor old Penal and B-4.
23 Nov 2015, 14:51 PM
#15
avatar of robertmikael
Donator 11

Posts: 311

Why not change the KV-1 to T-34/85 in this particular Counterattack Tactics commander? Then the Sovjets gets one call-in tank that belong to the 1944-45. Problem solved?
23 Nov 2015, 14:52 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Penals are simple matter of balance, relic is in denial about them. B-4 isn't bad either, if you'd checked actual production dates of arty pieces in game, you'd be surprised.

I'm talking about units that can't be balanced without completely breaking the immersion on them and making them significantly stronger then they were, or actually useful.

Take M-42 for example. It have completely no role in game, it can't fight lights(they will simply escape), it can't fight meds(escape or obliterate it), it can't fight heavies(do I need to elaborate?), its obviously useless vs infantry. Historically it had ammo allowing it to fight inf to a point, it might've been useless frontally vs tanks, but it was extremely easy and accurate and concealed it could knock out panzers from the flank or rear. In coh2 it won't even scare one away, even if you use three of them(cost of 2 ZiS guns, which you know what will do to P4 trying to YOLO frontally).
23 Nov 2015, 15:05 PM
#17
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Once I did a test with Tiger and M-42.

You need about 110-140 shots to kill frontally one Tiger at mid-max range :foreveralone:
23 Nov 2015, 15:12 PM
#18
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 14:40 PMKatitof

A tank that can take more then your average med tank and fight accordingly to its cost.
KV-1 isn't one for sure with current hp values and its shitty gun, I don't see the gun being improved, which leaves hp/armor values. Biggest problem of the tank is, it doesn't belong to the "war era" the multiplayer is on.

So what would we have?
- still easily dies under dedicated AT (unlike REAL heavies - Churchil, IS-2, Tiger, KT or Panther)
- have poor damage output - consistent but weak MG damage (no pintle MG), inconsistent gun (poor accuracy and pen)
- can't reliably pen frontally while can't flank because of speed

By the way, does anybody knows timing of OKW Panther next patch? What average CP you usually have by that time?

23 Nov 2015, 15:19 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


So what would we have?
- still easily dies under dedicated AT (unlike REAL heavies - Churchil, IS-2, Tiger, KT or Panther)
- have poor damage output - consistent but weak MG damage (no pintle MG), inconsistent gun (poor accuracy and pen)
- can't reliably pen frontally while can't flank because of speed

It should have enough durability not to have a chance to lose to OKW P4 for starter.
Put 80 hp for vet 1 or add it by default, copy panther vet for vet2, remove mobility bonuses from vet3 and increase reload bonus to 30%, there, done.

Durable, but far from tiger tier, still poor gun, but can actually outlast mediums easily and tank heavies a little bit better, you can have multiple, but still costs limits it and foregoing tech for it will punish you the moment opponent invests in TDs/ATGs.


By the way, does anybody knows timing of OKW Panther next patch? What average CP you usually have by that time?

Rushed it arrives about minute-two earlier then currently with penalties. I'd say 12-14 min depending on map control, which you can get easy if you push with volksblob while kubel YOLO caps whole map with its increased cap speed.
24 Nov 2015, 09:11 AM
#20
avatar of Socrates

Posts: 40

I still don't know why Relic nerfed T-34 and KV-1. Axis never got problems with this tanks (ok, except Soviet Industry commander abuse) and they hasve bunch of opportunities to fight this tanks:
OKW got shreks, Puma, JadgPZ4 with predator cloak, mines, Pz4 and Panther.
Ostheer got mighty PAK, mines, 2 shreks in 1 squad, PZ4, Panther, Stug.
T-34 never was a big problem or overpowered unit. Now both tanks - KV-1 too are just garbage and waste of fuel.
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