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4vs4 has become a repetitive verdun and bataille de la Somme

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Esxile
18 Nov 2015, 15:29 PM
#21
avatar of Esxile

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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 15:24 PMPuppetmaster


The majority of games are decided by MM. Pre Brits as Axis you were pretty often on the stronger team just based off ladder rank because there was a much bigger selection of players, though imo Axis generally had an advantage in randoms due to both factions having late game units. When Brits arrived, the player base shifted massively in favour of Allies, giving them the advantage as well as finally having a decent lategame.

Since the player base has shifted back towards Axis favour slightly, once again they have the advantage due to MM, but I feel balance is pretty good right now in 4's unless you are too soviet heavy / have no Brits.

Does eventually turn into an arty fest if there is no clear winner, which ends up being pretty boring.


And what determine the amount of player Axis and Allied? The balance. Disproportion of Allied / Axis search game is a direct result of balance issue like ISG/Mortar dominance meta.
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pigsoup
18 Nov 2015, 16:20 PM
#22
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Patrion 14

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was 4v4 ever different? its in better health than moat times in the past.
Playercard of Bo-Bobby Lion

3v3: Pstreak: - 3
3v3: Pstreak: + 8
3v3: Pstreak: - 3
3v3: Pstreak: - 2


















Playercard of Bo-Bobby Lion

3v3: Pstreak: - 3
2v2: Pstreak: - 2with Ohme
2v2: Pstreak: + 1with Ohme
2v2: Pstreak: + 3with Medman






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Ful4n0
18 Nov 2015, 16:23 PM
#23
avatar of Ful4n0

Posts: 345

then, all those balance threads asking for UKF nerfs AND backed up with how 4v4 win ratios had changed comparing to before UKF release??


why no one of you posted there that 4v4 statistics doesn´t matter????


just asking.....really interesting on why in this thread is something clear for anyone, but in balance threads asking for UKF nerfs lot of times those 4v4 chars appears and no one say: hey!!! thats bulllshit!!! 4v4 ratios dependes only in the playerbase...

just asking....
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2016, 16:21 PMBudwise
An already muni starved faction (OKW) is now more muni starved and still can't build caches.

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ElSlayer
18 Nov 2015, 16:37 PM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 15:09 PMAchtAchter


Guess you never used Celo. If 4 top 100 players go against 3 top 1000 and one 1 top 100 player, balance absolutely doesn't matter. And most 3vs3+ games are like this. You can nearly always determine the winning and the losing team before the game starts by watching at Celo.

You sound like those who say like "omg they have 4 prestige 3 lvl 100 players" and leave before game even started.

Balance absolutely matters in any game mode.
Nerfed obers, ISU-152, PTRS AI, JT, schrek long-range accuracy obviously had influence on solid % of wins.

I have managed to win with team of randoms aganst arranged teams several times so far.
Do you think balance doesn't mattered in these games?
Or do you think that such games doesn't contribute to winrates?
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Bananenheld
18 Nov 2015, 16:44 PM
#25
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 16:37 PMElSlayer

You sound like those who say like "omg they have 4 prestige 3 lvl 100 players" and leave before game even started.

Balance absolutely matters in any game mode.
Nerfed obers, ISU-152, PTRS AI, JT, schrek long-range accuracy obviously had influence on solid % of wins.

I have managed to win with team of randoms aganst arranged teams several times so far.
Do you think balance doesn't mattered in these games?
Or do you think that such games doesn't contribute to winrates?

sorry for offtopic but can you see if someone is in an arranged team?
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ElSlayer
18 Nov 2015, 16:46 PM
#26
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 16:44 PMBananenheld

sorry for offtopic but can you see if someone is in an arranged team?

Yes, when all 4 players have nicknames like [SS Pz Div 12345 HEIL HITLER FAP FAP FAP] | Playername
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FG127820
18 Nov 2015, 17:36 PM
#27
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Posts: 101

4v4 Random ranked can induce cancer because of uneven or stacked teams; Allies have it tougher because they need more combined arms to defeat Axis (esp. in terms of AT), but in general have more options due to 3 factions. There will be more super tanks in 4s and indirect fire so it will be less about infantry play and tactics and more on mindless blobbing. Allied 4v4 AT > Axis.

In general only play 4v4s for fun; ranks are completely meaningless and a cock-measuring contest. With an AT on voice comm, 4s are actually quite enjoyable, but most times randoms won't be a match for ATs.
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AvNY
18 Nov 2015, 18:01 PM
#28
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Posts: 862

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 16:46 PMElSlayer

Yes, when all 4 players have nicknames like [SS Pz Div 12345 HEIL HITLER FAP FAP FAP] | Playername


I actually LOL'd at this.

So true.

You don't see "Ox & Bucks" or even something as badass as "The Black Watch" ever, even though such units have far longer and more distinguished histories than the hoodlums that were the SS. And you seldom see US units.
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Omega_Warrior
18 Nov 2015, 18:40 PM
#29
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Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 15:01 PMMittens
Axis has better unit synergy in 4v4's between OKW and Wher than allies do. Recently when I've been playing I'm running into AT's that spam the hell out of indirect fire early game and almost entirely push allies off the map as they don't share the same amount of indirect firepower. the indirect fire coupled with the Med truck allowing for VERY forward position makes team games a mess, balance is all over the place early and mid game.



There is still nothing in this game more powerful then a decently defended elephant or jagdtiger in 4v4.
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SwonVIP
18 Nov 2015, 18:43 PM
#30
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Donator 11

Posts: 640

small playerbase => unbalanced games => AT team wrecking randoms => people go to the forums and complain about balance

As long as there are no penalties for early game leavers and a better matchmaking system 4v4s will be unbalanced anyways it doesnt matter what balance changes you will make.

Every player should get his own ELO... normally as a 4v4 team/guy you play with many diffrent players so the ELO system doesnt work and your team of 4 good guys will always get matched against "noobs". So it isnt a balance issue its all about the bad matchmaking/ELO system which is based on the small playerbase... GG WP :luvDerp:
Playercard of SwonVIP

2v2: Pstreak: + 2with d0ggY^
2v2: Pstreak: + 1with Pappy O´Daniel
4v4: Pstreak: + 7with Pappy O´Daniel, JDR, & Sunless Ocean, Starless Sky
4v4: Pstreak: - 1with Mik, Pappy O´Daniel, & JDR


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AchtAchter
18 Nov 2015, 18:44 PM
#31
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Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 16:37 PMElSlayer

You sound like those who say like "omg they have 4 prestige 3 lvl 100 players" and leave before game even started.


Dude I never drop. I just state my experience, CELO shows the winners before the game starts.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu

Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here

Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
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Jadame!
18 Nov 2015, 19:08 PM
#32
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Posts: 1122

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 18:44 PMAchtAchter


Dude I never drop. I just state my experience, CELO shows the winners before the game starts.


It depends.

I beat top 10 AT teams both in 4v4 and 2v2 with randoms. But if you rank 10 something with 5k guy against 2 500 guys you pretty much fucked.
Playercard of Jadame

4v4: Pstreak: + 3
4v4: Pstreak: + 9
4v4: Pstreak: + 3
4v4: Pstreak: + 9


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Esxile
18 Nov 2015, 20:41 PM
#33
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Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 16:20 PMpigsoup
was 4v4 ever different? its in better health than moat times in the past.


Yeah maybe, I remember it was (still is sometime) bloberino but you learn to counter it. ISG/Mortar near med truck + Flak truck, I'm still wondering how to counter it unless I take a really clear and net advantage in the 3-4 first minutes.
And let's be honest vs a Kubel/Sturm start, it never happens if the player is good :D

@ AchtAchter, I know it hurt you a lot when I said 2vs2 and 4vs4 are the same but to make it your signature, I didn't know your were so susceptible.
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Deca
18 Nov 2015, 21:25 PM
#34
avatar of Deca

Posts: 63

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 16:46 PMElSlayer

Yes, when all 4 players have nicknames like [SS Pz Div 12345 HEIL HITLER FAP FAP FAP] | Playername


Threadwinner!
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ZeroLithium
19 Nov 2015, 02:10 AM
#35
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Posts: 59

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 15:09 PMAchtAchter


Guess you never used Celo. If 4 top 100 players go against 3 top 1000 and one 1 top 100 player, balance absolutely doesn't matter. And most 3vs3+ games are like this. You can nearly always determine the winning and the losing team before the game starts by watching at Celo.


Totally true. If I know my team mates are excellent players I have much more confidence in my team winning and performing well(theoretically anyway, people do have their off days) because they know what they're doing and how to adapt to the battle. They will react relative to me, and I will react to them.

The difference in skill is so important, especially in 4v4, because it's nearly impossible to carry a game when you have 3 other people on your team who need to perform but just aren't at the same level.












Playercard of Zero

3v3: Pstreak: - 2with Aggressive Tits, & I Like Pie
4v4: Pstreak: + 1
4v4: Pstreak: + 1


]
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ZeroLithium
19 Nov 2015, 02:14 AM
#36
avatar of ZeroLithium

Posts: 59

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 16:44 PMBananenheld

sorry for offtopic but can you see if someone is in an arranged team?


If you are using CELO, you can sort of guess if they're an arranged team when they all have the same rank.
E.g 4 USF players with rank 123 vs 4 axis players with rank 123, 234, 456, 567.
Or 2 USF players with rank 123 & 2 UKF rank 456 vs 4 axis players with rank 123, 234, 456, 567.

You can also use CELO to check their playercard and see if they actually are a premade.
Playercard of Zero

3v3: Pstreak: - 2with Aggressive Tits, & I Like Pie
4v4: Pstreak: + 1
4v4: Pstreak: + 1


]
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siuking666
19 Nov 2015, 03:39 AM
#37
avatar of siuking666

Posts: 707

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2015, 19:08 PMJadame!


It depends.

I beat top 10 AT teams both in 4v4 and 2v2 with randoms. But if you rank 10 something with 5k guy against 2 500 guys you pretty much fucked.


Just from my experience:
4v4/3v3 top AT teams have quite a skill gap with 2v2 top teams.
And it's much harder to coordinate when you have 3 teammates anyway, once they have a hole in their defense and your team starts exploiting it, the game is pretty much over.
Playercard: http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198005198550
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SpaceHamster
19 Nov 2015, 04:05 AM
#38
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Patrion 14

Posts: 474

I don't know about you guys but CELO shows AT teams by giving them all the same rank when I'm in a game.

That said, my experience with 3v3s and 4v4s is you can carry your team to victory as long as you don't have to fight coordinated AT teams. Or people who are 100-1000 ranks higher in the ladder than your teammates. Otherwise, you're pretty screwed and you might as well quit when you see a teammate drop and replaced with an AI.
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