Adjust JP4 cloak range

"I can't counter this specialized tank destroyer with tanks! Also I'm going to assume my opponent outplays me at every turn while I theorycraft using other counters."

Smoke and flank is applicable here.

Hard to argue with you since you didn't even bother to read my arguments. Is it really theorycraft to say if he goes JPIV that the other player will get some form of indirect fire to deal with AT guns. As you describe it, any discussion is automatically theorycraft since it is based upon hypothetical situations. My point is how common, and devastating a simple JPIV in combination with indirect fire is, too effective for cost.

JPIV hard counters tanks, I get that, but that does not mean tanks should not exist when a JPIV appears or that my TD should be completely nullified. He gets a solid AT platform, not one that prevents tank play at the 8 minute mark.

Smoke and flank do not apply here because, as I already discussed, JPIV is one of the most difficult TD to flank because of its immense vet bonuses and the plethora of AT options available to the faction. How else would you flank a unit with mobility if not with tanks?

Also smoke used offensive, which is literally restricted to Americans, is not excuse enough to protect overperforming mechanics.

You make it sound like I have limited experience in this game. I am telling you from a player who uses the JPIV regularly that it is too good. It is too easy to get vet with, and at high vet it is far too effective.

ENOUGH

My point is how common

The JP IV is an 'effective' 200 fuel, and that is not excluding the Leig, which is the only indirect fire Okw has, unless you want to spend another 140 fuel on a Stuka which is in a forgotten tier. For the same cost you could get a Pershing, or a comet or whatever, plus supporting units.

It does nothing but hunt tanks, nothing. This is it's only purpose.

Have to agree with Domine, I've lost many JP4's and killed lots of tanks with JP4's. Not really a problem, except what I said earlier the recloack time should be a bit longer.

It seems the logic of some people is: you can't fix shit cause the faction, commander or other units are UP.


I feel i've seen the same excuses before with:
Ram: T34 needs them to remain relevant. You can play around it. Just use blitz and escape. He is spending a tank to snare your vehicle, etc.

Tiger TwP: it's totally fine. It's a freaking TA. I'm having my income penalized in order to use it. Shooting 3 times in 10s is totally fine. You should force your opponent to spend his munition so he doesn't stun-kill your tanks.

Blitz (old) + smoke: he is spending lots of munitions to save his tanks. It's also vet1.

Buttoning: Guards are only useful for snare as they are piñatas. The whole investment should let you chain stun vehicles. Plus it's countered by smoke!

Mark vehicle (stack and damage): just retreat your tank. It's totally fine that you can 2 shot a tank cause they expend lots of resources. Plus teamwork right?

Note: you realize why vehicles crew have a in combat cooldown in order to be able to get out? Imagine fucking up with targeting by jumping and getting inside in order to avoid getting hit.

PD:
-attack ground doesn't work with Firefly or AT rifles
-Buttoning doesn't seem to stop the tank from fazing and escaping (own experience)

My point is how common, and devastating a simple JPIV in combination with indirect fire is, too effective for cost.

You make it sound like I have limited experience in this game. I am telling you from a player who uses the JPIV regularly that it is too good. It is too easy to get vet with, and at high vet it is far too effective.

Please calculate me why its cost effective, show me the numbers and compare the DPS to SU85, Jacksons etc. It's on par, its just has higher survivability because OKW can't press out tanks every time you lose them.

You might be experienced in 4vs4, but in 1vs1 & 2vs2 you can perfectly flank, smoke & catch JP4 out of position, since maps are not bottlenecks like in all the 3vs3+ fun modes. Double AT guns shut down every JP4 play and no, they are not instantly countered by a Panzerwerfer or Stuka because again its not 4vs4.

The JP IV is an 'effective' 200 fuel, and that is not excluding the Leig, which is the only indirect fire Okw has, unless you want to spend another 140 fuel on a Stuka which is in a forgotten tier. For the same cost you could get a Pershing, or a comet or whatever, plus supporting units.

It does nothing but hunt tanks, nothing. This is it's only purpose.

The Jp IV is 135 fuel. The Stuka is 100 fuel. There is no "effective" cost. The resource penalty is there to affect the timings of units. OKW has probably the cheapest teaching in the game as a result of this.

Secondly, an SU-85, Jackson, Firefly and Stug (has limited AI thanks to the MG) all do "nothing" but hurt tanks so I'm not quite sure how that can be used in an argument. The Jp IV is the easiest to keep alive by a long way and only really has issues penetrating IS-2s which is solved when it gets vet.

The Camo is quite frankly broken. Being able to ambush from camo is fair enough (though the unit is still strong without it) but being able to cloak mid battle is stupid - this isn't Star Trek.

The Jp IV is 135 fuel. The Stuka is 100 fuel. There is no "effective" cost. The resource penalty is there to affect the timings of units. OKW has probably the cheapest teaching in the game as a result of this.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but saying resource penalty is affecting the timing of units(1,44 times later than the allies counterpart) is exactly, 100% the same as saying that the unit is 1,44 times more expensive.

This isn't a CoH2 thing, this is elementary math. The biggest thing OKW gets for their lower fuel income is being the worst faction.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but saying resource penalty is affecting the timing of units(1,44 times later than the allies counterpart) is exactly, 100% the same as saying that the unit is 1,44 times more expensive.

This isn't a CoH2 thing, this is elementary math. The biggest thing OKW gets for their lower fuel income is being the worst faction.

You cannot use the excuse that they are the worst faction for the fuel penalty, because the fuel penalty has existed since WFA launched, yet their strength as a faction has varied and they have previously been extremely strong, especially in team games.

An Ost Panther and OKW Panther cost the same resources (490 MP 175 F) and they perform fairly close to each other, with the OKW panther having slightly better ai for some reason (ignoring vet 5 bonuses, because that is unique to OKW)

This alone is enough to prove that the OKW Panther does not cost a significant amount more fuel, else it would outperform the OST one by a long way. Same can be said for Ost PzIV and OKW PzIV (Okw one has excellent armour as soon as its built, makes up for the extra fuel cost, especialy when combined with 3x armour bulletins).

You cannot balance the game by having some stupid and over performing abilities 'making up' for weaknesses a faction has.

From another thread

1- Price of a unit is the one listed, not the one with "convertion". It matters for timing and number field, not performance. (There's a reason OKW has cheapest teching)

Show Spoiler

Why do people wonder the game balance is so broken when stuff like this is being said?

You cannot use the excuse that they are the worst faction for the fuel penalty, because the fuel penalty has existed since WFA launched, yet their strength as a faction has varied and they have previously been extremely strong, especially in team games.

The same can be said about everything about OKW, since it's fundamental design philosophy hasn't been changed. It's not attributed JUST to the fuel adjustment, but the fuel adjustment plays a role in that.

An Ost Panther and OKW Panther cost the same resources (490 MP 175 F) and they perform fairly close to each other, with the OKW panther having slightly better ai for some reason (ignoring vet 5 bonuses, because that is unique to OKW)

This alone is enough to prove that the OKW Panther does not cost a significant amount more fuel, else it would outperform the OST one by a long way. Same can be said for Ost PzIV and OKW PzIV (Okw one has excellent armour as soon as its built, makes up for the extra fuel cost, especialy when combined with 3x armour bulletins).

You have literally upset your own point by saying 'significant' amount more fuel. You acknowledge that there is a fuel disparity yourself, and it fucks OKW over. You even said that they perform fairly close, but not identical. You even basically reflected my argument when you said the OKW PIV gets additional armour to make up for the extra fuel cost. What are you even arguing about by now? And since when did we start looking at bulletins, like ever?!

Saying OKW lower fuel income is not the same as higher cost is saying 3+1 is not 4, but 2+2 is. It's saying 'Volks should beat Riflemen because one of them doesn't cost more, Riflemen simply come out later'.
There is nothing to argue about, it's a fundamental truth. It's pure math. Okw's situation would be exactly the same if they had 100% fuel income but everything would cost 1,44 times more fuel.

You cannot balance the game by having some stupid and over performing abilities 'making up' for weaknesses a faction has.

Except that this is what OKW is based on, like it or not. I didn't design the faction. Then people came by and started nerfing the things that were supposed to make up for the Fuel and Ammo income, and this is how suddenly Winrates go apart by 40% and CoH2s playerbase sinks down to 2013 levels. You take something away from a faction, you have to make good for it if you don't want it to become bad. Nobody is arguing USF should get their Vehicle crews removed. The crews exist for a reason, and it's to make up for something.


And lastly, quoting anybody trying to support your argument is a logical fallacy. Ben Carson says the pyramids were used to store grain. Guess there's our answer for the purpose of the pyramids.

Please calculate me why its cost effective, show me the numbers and compare the DPS to SU85, Jacksons etc. It's on par, its just has higher survivability because OKW can't press out tanks every time you lose them.

You might be experienced in 4vs4, but in 1vs1 & 2vs2 you can perfectly flank, smoke & catch JP4 out of position, since maps are not bottlenecks like in all the 3vs3+ fun modes. Double AT guns shut down every JP4 play and no, they are not instantly countered by a Panzerwerfer or Stuka because again its not 4vs4.

No doubt the DPS is similar. Th survivaility is much higher because of a stupid mechanic. I don't have Relic's data, as you know, but I can tell you from my experience the effectiveness of the unit is much higher than its cost. The effectiveness is the cost of the unit divided by the average damage dealt by the unit, converted to cost by multiplying the cost of the unit damage. DPS is one part, survivability is one part, but damage dealt over the average life span is the other.

Bash larger team games all you want, but high ranking teams and well coordinated strategy take the same level of skill (albeit different) as micro in 1v1 and 2v2. Not all, in fact few 3v3 and 4v4 maps have bottlenecks to funnel into. Those maps were largely removed because of player feedback.

Double AT guns do not shut down JPIV since it need only fire once and then cloak, at most it will take two penetrating shots, which allows it to easily escape. At vet 5 this unit will have already one shotted your Jackson.

AT guns are countered by mortars, you don't need stukas. I only used that to point out how easily in a single player could establish map dominance. Med to JPIV, Mech next, to fuel transfer, to Stuka. Done. At this point he will have field 1 or 2 tanks at most, and he will be hemoraging MP to fight the JPIV with AT guns and infantry getting rocked by the Stuka, and any tank being threatened by the AT. Mix in some off map elite infantry for OKW and you have some really nasty stuff. But any indirect fire will work, and it doesn't just have to be ones you can build, if you push him off and steal a mortar how are you supposed to push this tank off now?

The tank can cloak, it can get great vet, I just don't want it to insta cloak without the ability of me to punish it for working alone and without support. It should be a support unit not a spotter or a sniper.

No doubt the DPS is similar. Th survivaility is much higher because of a stupid mechanic...

as long as we are talking about this, allies tanks do not get survivability vets. a vet 3 jackson is very strong but one misstep, it dies just as quick and easily as vet 1 jackson.

this is not the case with axis tanks. so @AchtActher, warding off axis tank is not a counter.

especially when it comes to JPIV not only it gets extra health at vet 2, combine that with the alien tech, it becomes much much harder to kill at vet 2 than at vet 1.

can you list another 10 ways to reveal this thing except for the two you listed?

Global: Infantry proximity, All Recon Planes (Doctrinal or unit call in)

Sov: Tracking on Su76, Su85 and Zis 3. Mark Target. Armoured Vehicle Detection. Flares.

USF: Most reliant on air recon, but they also have non doctrinal air recon which no one else has. Also best infantry AT

UKF: Hammer specialization, Tankhunters, 17lber flare.

And that's just detection, in terms of negating it:

Sov: Mortar Smoke, Shock troop Smoke Grenade. Guard rifle button.

USF: Smoke rifle nade, smoke airdrop. Sherman/m8a1 smoke barrage.

UKF: Mortar smoke barrage, Commando vet 3 smoke, Heavy Gammon bomb.

Whitw phosphorous also stops it from being able to shoot. true of both USF and UKF.

Sov: Tracking on Su76, Su85 and Zis 3.

This applies to infantry exclusively.
Yes, soviet AT guns and tank destroyers track infantry, because relic.
Unless you mean LOS increase, which does a whooping nothing to detect cloaked JP4.

You want jagd to remain broken just so OKW has to hang to something? Oh then that means you must surely be OK with rifles being as they are since usf has sub par AT and lategame.

USF: Also best infantry AT

First penals = rifle flamers, now bazooka > schrek?
MIND FUCKING BLOWN TO QUARKS

Global: Infantry proximity, All Recon Planes (Doctrinal or unit call in)

Sov: Tracking on Su76, Su85 and Zis 3. Mark Target. Armoured Vehicle Detection. Flares.

USF: Most reliant on air recon, but they also have non doctrinal air recon which no one else has. Also best infantry AT

UKF: Hammer specialization, Tankhunters, 17lber flare.

And that's just detection, in terms of negating it:

Sov: Mortar Smoke, Shock troop Smoke Grenade. Guard rifle button.

USF: Smoke rifle nade, smoke airdrop. Sherman/m8a1 smoke barrage.

UKF: Mortar smoke barrage, Commando vet 3 smoke, Heavy Gammon bomb.

Whitw phosphorous also stops it from being able to shoot. true of both USF and UKF.

hammer specialisation. fair enough. one sincere questions though. can't JPIV cloak whilst tracked or it does but can you see where its going?

tank hunters? does UKF tank hunters have exceptional viewing distance? or is it an ability?

17lber flare, armour detection, flare are lol. i mean why don't you list cloaked snipers?


recon plane is most reasonable one but it is interesting how you list USF one as the most reliable... how? the IR pathfinder commander one? single pass that last like 4 seconds or major single pass recon that last 2 seconds?

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thanks for listing smokes. to be honest the smoke applies to all sides and i think only USF has the upper hand in terms of availability of smoke. not my point though.

my point is specifically about the ability and how it adds exponential survivability to this particular tank which already gets more than usual survivability vet than other axis tanks.

I'm uploading a video now to show and debunk the bullshit and missinformation on this thread.

You want jagd to remain broken just so OKW has to hang to something? Oh then that means you must surely be OK with rifles being as they are since usf has sub par AT and lategame.

The Jagd is not as 'broken' as Rifles are. I would be fine if cloak gets nerfed or removed, but this should come with a compensation, otherwise we'll just be doing what got Okw into the state it currently is, that is taking things away without compensation.

While OKW is overall weak in 1v1's there is no excuse for moving cloak on this unit. It should be like the hetzer/hellcat in COH1. Initial strike bonus but takes about 5 seconds out of combat to re-cloak none of this phase in and out of cloak and stay cloaked on move. This unit should be an ambush type TD. Overall you could buff the accuracy or damage to teh first shot out of cloak to keep JPIV relevant.

There you go (potato internet took some time to upload)