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russian armor

Wehrmacht- A no show

6 Nov 2015, 09:28 AM
#61
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

Asymetric faction design.
Wehr indeed is currently disadvantaged in being unable to cost-effectively fight infantry battles, and in a number of other respects. Unless you go full tryhard Osttruppen that is, but even that won't do against Rifle Flamers. Also, never employ PGrens in anything but an auxiliary role.
Anyways,
My advice is to do what I do and treat it more as the comedic relief faction it is, I've been trying infantry doctrine and all the other thoroughly non-meta commanders recently, its been a blast.


both the wehr and the OKW suffer from brittle infantry. All the received accuracy in the world isn't going to make the grenadier or ober resistant to explosive.

wehr might have the more damaging support weapon, but their infantry and support weapons are also more fragile. Wehr is a faction of glass cannon. The soviet and USF both have excellent mean of exploiting the wehr's lower infantry count.

Previously the USF had to rely on rifleman, but now they have the pack howitzer to rain death upon the wehr. Rifleman don't need the uber vet 3 bonus anymore.

the HE sherman is almost cheating against the wehrin 1v1. the only reason why the HE round needs to be so powerful is because they need to fight against schreck blob.
6 Nov 2015, 09:58 AM
#62
avatar of mycalliope

Posts: 721

oh so people are saying pgren is an awesome infantry better than commandos and shocks...:foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone:

Dont Worry axis brothers:believe in the okw redesign, until then we have the ultimate anti blob counter STURMTIGER :megusta:
although rest of the doctrine is shitty :foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone:
6 Nov 2015, 10:22 AM
#63
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

oh so people are saying pgren is an awesome infantry better than commandos and shocks...:foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone:

Dont Worry axis brothers:believe in the okw redesign, until then we have the ultimate anti blob counter STURMTIGER :megusta:
although rest of the doctrine is shitty :foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone::foreveralone:


The verry idea of saying that pzgrens are better than commandos and shocks means bias if not insanity.
On the other hand the verry idea of comparing these units is not ok eather because pzgrens are stock unit, they are in some measure a generalist unit because they can fulfill a mediocre AI and a mediocre AT role which is different from shocks and commandos purpose.
The thing is that Lostheer does not have proper specialist AI infantry. And people please don't even dare to mention AGs or Stormtoops. AGs are obsolete after the first 5 minutes and stormtroops are expensive, has expensive AI upgrade (which is mandatory if you want to use them as AI infantry), and are comming in a underused doctrine, having such a poor survivability that every attack means a great risk taken. What would you know about this anyway when you have specialist squads of 5-6 men??!

Assymetric balance, no problem, but at least don't tell us that pzgrens' AI performance is comparable to shocks and commandos and even paras AI performance because this is pure bullshit.
6 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM
#64
avatar of bert69

Posts: 150

What are you even talking about when you get to build panzergrens from your base at t2, that can also be upgraded within a minute to counter any vehicle rush. The only downside of panzergrens is expensive reinforce cost, and the fact you actually have to sit them in green cover like fallschirmjagers to be effective.

However I do have to say that the commando gammon bomb is more than just retarded, and their ambush passive mechanic is even more retarded.

P.S. Rifle company is fucking stupid
6 Nov 2015, 13:42 PM
#65
avatar of Muxsus

Posts: 170



The verry idea of saying that pzgrens are better than commandos and shocks means bias if not insanity.
On the other hand the verry idea of comparing these units is not ok eather because pzgrens are stock unit, they are in some measure a generalist unit because they can fulfill a mediocre AI and a mediocre AT role which is different from shocks and commandos purpose.
The thing is that Lostheer does not have proper specialist AI infantry. And people please don't even dare to mention AGs or Stormtoops. AGs are obsolete after the first 5 minutes and stormtroops are expensive, has expensive AI upgrade (which is mandatory if you want to use them as AI infantry), and are comming in a underused doctrine, having such a poor survivability that every attack means a great risk taken. What would you know about this anyway when you have specialist squads of 5-6 men??!

Assymetric balance, no problem, but at least don't tell us that pzgrens' AI performance is comparable to shocks and commandos and even paras AI performance because this is pure bullshit.


Mediocre AI and AT? They have the highest mid range dps out of all infantry squads in the game except falls, and with double schreck they are the best infantry based AT. Saying that they are "mediocre" is just delusional. They perform exatcly like they should for their price.
6 Nov 2015, 13:42 PM
#66
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

Regarding this commandos vs pzgrens thing - they are completely different squads. In a fair fight in a vacuum, Panzergrenadiers will win since the new patch, but abilities on Commandos are what makes them much better troops overall - ambush, demo charge, better grenade.

The only problem here, dude, is that you accuse people who are thinking that Pzgrens are not what they should be, by saying that they want some terminator squads that require almost zero micro and that can run across the map killing ever infantry they meet. What I pointed out is that Allied already have such infantry units so your accusation is more than awkward and inappropriate.
Well I mean, I didn't mention anyone by name, if you recognized yourself in my rant, that's on you :) . But in all seriousness, it was not meant to be insulting. When I said terminator squads that require almost zero micro I forgot to add "like allies already have", but I was thinking it. So if it makes you feel any better you can consider my post more like this: "axis players aren't pansies so they don't need such noskill infantry, they do just fine with tactical play". And believe me I do not say that out of love for allies or because I like shock troops. I just think this game needs less assault infantry, not more.
6 Nov 2015, 13:54 PM
#67
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2015, 13:42 PMMuxsus


Mediocre AI and AT? They have the highest mid range dps out of all infantry squads in the game except falls, and with double schreck they are the best infantry based AT. Saying that they are "mediocre" is just delusional. They perform exatcly like they should for their price.


When u say highest mid range dps do u take into account upgraded allied infantry or just base versions because with 1919 or bars i don't think so.
Double shreck is brutally costly and often 1 shootted fragile 4 man squad.Very few people use them in this way except s quad as stopgap or cover for pak.

No one is saying their price can't be increased if buffed,But lategame against rifleblob with lmg or brit blob they can't do anything with vaunted dps.1 member loss=25% dps gone.Its just too weak in survivability terms.Lategame pzgrens can't do much vs allied vet infantry with lmgs.
6 Nov 2015, 14:22 PM
#68
avatar of ATCF
Donator 33

Posts: 587

Is it time for the 1.5 armor to return to all Ostheer Soldiers?
6 Nov 2015, 14:37 PM
#69
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2015, 14:22 PMATCF
Is it time for the 1.5 armor to return to all Ostheer Soldiers?

Depends.

Ready to pay 300 mp per squad of grens or prefer going down to con level dps?
6 Nov 2015, 17:35 PM
#70
avatar of Muxsus

Posts: 170



When u say highest mid range dps do u take into account upgraded allied infantry or just base versions because with 1919 or bars i don't think so.
Double shreck is brutally costly and often 1 shootted fragile 4 man squad.Very few people use them in this way except s quad as stopgap or cover for pak.


BAR is better than stg44 at long range and worse at short, m1919 is similar. Both are roughly equal to an stg44 at mid range, and M1 rifles can't really compete with it. The double schreck is actually cheap for its performance (compared to volks schreck) and is a threat to TDs.


No one is saying their price can't be increased if buffed,But lategame against rifleblob with lmg or brit blob they can't do anything with vaunted dps.1 member loss=25% dps gone.Its just too weak in survivability terms.Lategame pzgrens can't do much vs allied vet infantry with lmgs.


LMG blobs are a problem, I agree. But it doesn't concern Pgrens alone, every faction suffers from them. If you have trouble countering them I'd suggest making 2 MG42s or a Panzerwerfer, they work wonders. No one said that blobs should be able to be countered by infantry squads alone.
6 Nov 2015, 17:46 PM
#71
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2015, 14:22 PMATCF
Is it time for the 1.5 armor to return to all Ostheer Soldiers?


Better option start with 4 man and current state.Lategame 1 man addition upgrade option on individual squad basis(pzgren can't use it if also shreck),with an extra mp or munition cost then.Problem fixed.

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