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russian armor

Panzer 4 penetration.

3 Nov 2015, 08:23 AM
#21
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705



You do know the M4 Sherman base regularly bounces of the front of a Pzr 4. Most Whermact players ignore it because it's a General Purpose tank unlike the Panzer that is a dedicated tank fighter.


Panzer 4 bounces of other mediums regularly too,so its 2 way.Sherman atleast kills infantry like a scythe through wheat.Pz 4 average even at that.Right now if panzer 4 was deleted from wehr roster i don't think there will be much of a reaction from playerbase.
3 Nov 2015, 08:25 AM
#22
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

the E8 need a cost increase since it got a pretty major buff.

something like 390 mp 145 fuel.
3 Nov 2015, 08:28 AM
#23
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1



The hilarious part is that the Panzer IV has issues trouble penetrating the rear armour of the Comet(180), Churchill(180) and IS-2(205) unless firing at point-blank. It's already slower that the other tanks except for blitzing or using the Encirclement breakthrough. Aren't mediums supposed to engage heavies when flanking? I guess we could toss more PIVs at it, but rear armour on quite a few tanks, KT included, should be re-examined so that flanking with mediums is better rewarded.




Totally agreed. Actually told that by myself several times on these forums.
Remember that vid with 2 Pz.IV lost vs immobilized IS-2?

3 Nov 2015, 08:46 AM
#24
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

After PanzerIV buff, what will happen to T34 and Sherman? Evolving from useless to garbage?



Same thing that happened with the Axis basic infantry after Allied basic infantry buff. Nothing. And it would be ok if we think my first sentence is ok.
3 Nov 2015, 09:09 AM
#25
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 353

Check for Penetration stats (Far/mid/near)

Sherman 75 mm AP (100/120/140)
Cromwell 75 mm (105/120/135)
T-34 76 mm (80/100/120)
Pz4 75 mm (100/110/120)

Oh (why tank gun use for counter T-34 like Kwk40 75mm/L48 have lower pen than tank gun use for infantry Support Role like M3 75 mm/L37 )

I know something not inaccurate for balance but not for highest cost workhorse tank
3 Nov 2015, 09:33 AM
#26
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Check for Penetration stats (Far/mid/near)

Sherman 75 mm AP (100/120/140)
Cromwell 75 mm (105/120/135)
T-34 76 mm (80/100/120)
Pz4 75 mm (100/110/120)


Now add reload and armor values to that list.

Oh (why tank gun use for counter T-34 like Kwk40 75mm/L48 have lower pen than tank gun use for infantry Support Role like M3 75 mm/L37 )

I know something not inaccurate for balance but not for highest cost workhorse tank

Because balance.
3 Nov 2015, 10:20 AM
#27
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 353


Now add reload and armor values to that list.


ok next Reload time
Pz4 5.3-5.7 sec
Sherman & Cromwell 5.6-6 Sec
T-34 6.2-6.8 sec

at last Armor and Chance by front armor (near/mid/Far)
Pz 4 180 And with Skirt 234
Sherman & Cromwell 160
T-34 150

Pz4 vs Cromwell and sherman (75%/68%/62%)
Pz4 vs T-34/76 (80%/73%/66%)
Sherman vs Pz4 (77%/66%/55%)
Cromwell vs Pz4 (75%/66%/58%)
T-34/76 vs Pz4 (66%/55%/44%)
w/skirt Form OKW Ausf J
Sherman (59%/51%/42%)
Cromwell (57%/51%/44%)
and T-34/76 (51%/42%/34%)

summany need some skill to use
3 Nov 2015, 10:36 AM
#28
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

the only mediums that are effective against heavies are the V and the comet. you can still beat heavies with IVs/cromwells/3476s/shermans but it requires multiple tanks and good micro in decent terrain. that's how it should be.
3 Nov 2015, 10:38 AM
#29
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

the only mediums that are effective against heavies are the V and the comet. you can still beat heavies with IVs/cromwells/3476s/shermans but it requires multiple tanks and good micro in decent terrain. that's how it should be.


EZ-8 and 34/85 also are valid choices, not as good as these two, but still potent, especially EZ8 which is simply superior medium tank.
3 Nov 2015, 10:45 AM
#30
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470



EZ-8 and 34/85 also are valid choices, not as good as these two, but still potent, especially EZ8 which is simply superior medium tank.


i had forgotten about those two. i still wouldn't want to try and fight a heavy head on with them but they'll do even better than a standard medium circling and you can kill a heavy with the other mediums that way.
3 Nov 2015, 10:57 AM
#31
3 Nov 2015, 11:07 AM
#32
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

Like most other players I use P4s to deal with allies infantry rather than with allies tanks since you have tank destroyers and At guns for that job.

And when thinking about the AI role the P4 is clearly over priced in that sector, being easily outperformed by sherman (due HE Shells) and by cromwells (due high speed crush). P4 vs Shermans vs Cromwell is rather a RNG fest, unless it's the P4 okw, so you could say they perform on the same level against each other.
I think it would be ok to decrease to costs of P4 to Sherman/Cromwell level, while reducing the P4 OKW version by 10 fuel, to show its superiority over Cromwell/Sherman.
3 Nov 2015, 11:18 AM
#33
avatar of luvnest
Strategist Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1094 | Subs: 20

Why do people think that because a tank is German and if it doesn't roflstop everything in the game then it needs a buff


because Kruppsteel duh
3 Nov 2015, 12:05 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Reducing cost could make it more viable choice.

HP > Armor

Penetration and Armor worth less at close range.

So use the tank at longer range, when it have the most advantages?
3 Nov 2015, 12:36 PM
#35
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392


What about the 5 fuel difference between the Panzer IV J and Easy Eight? Yet the Easy Eight beats 3/4 times?



Nothing changed of course, except the buffing of it's primary counterpart, triple buffing of an already superior unit, and addition of the British Forces and their army of superior tanks. But no nothing's changed.


let me ask you this..

why does the Pershing "Heavy" tank which comes at 13 cp from a doctrinal commander and costs 600mp and 230fuel and also is limited to 1 LOSE to the cheaper non tech Panther that also DOESNT HAVE a limit of 1?

why should the panzer 4 beat the E8??

does the t34-76 beat Panzer 4s??

does the sherman beat Panzer 4s??

3 Nov 2015, 12:37 PM
#36
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

3 Nov 2015, 12:40 PM
#37
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705



let me ask you this..

why does the Pershing "Heavy" tank which comes at 13 cp from a doctrinal commander and costs 600mp and 230fuel and also is limited to 1 LOSE to the cheaper non tech Panther that also DOESNT HAVE a limit of 1?

why should the panzer 4 beat the E8??

does the t34-76 beat Panzer 4s??

does the sherman beat Panzer 4s??



Pershing doesn't lose to panther unless bad micro or RNG.
Pershing has brutal performance against infantry/at guns.Panther zero.
Panther requires massive teching,pershing free call-in.
Wehrmacht has panther as it lacked 60 range tank destroyer,usf by design wasn't supposed to get heavy tank with jackson best td in the game but still got pershing.
3 Nov 2015, 12:41 PM
#38
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1



let me ask you this..

why does the Pershing "Heavy" tank which comes at 13 cp from a doctrinal commander and costs 600mp and 230fuel and also is limited to 1 LOSE to the cheaper non tech Panther that also DOESNT HAVE a limit of 1?

why should the panzer 4 beat the E8??

does the t34-76 beat Panzer 4s??

does the sherman beat Panzer 4s??


1. panther only at, no ai capability
2. panther is fucking expensive, have fun teching to t4 and building a panther, you will be without any armor for 20+ mins(more like 30 mins because you wont have any map control)
3. ye lets buff pershing to tiger level so allys have the early, mid and lategame advantage

jeez u guys are funny (im fine with p4 btw, maybe a slight cost reduction of 5 fuel or so but the meta is just not about mediums i guess)
3 Nov 2015, 12:45 PM
#39
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392



The hilarious part is that the Panzer IV has issues trouble penetrating the rear armour of the Comet(180), Churchill(180) and IS-2(205) unless firing at point-blank. It's already slower that the other tanks except for blitzing or using the Encirclement breakthrough. Aren't mediums supposed to engage heavies when flanking? I guess we could toss more PIVs at it, but rear armour on quite a few tanks, KT included, should be re-examined so that flanking with mediums is better rewarded.

Onto the PIV vs doctrinal mediums, main issue that Someguy is pointing out that the standard M4 Sherman with AP and Cromwell vs the Panzer IV, while they will probably lose to the PIV head-on, it's not as one-sided as the E8 stomping the PIV into the ground thanks to its penetration and armour.

As for my opinion on the Panzer IV, no real problem with the tank. It's a good generalist that can help anchor the line and protect the Pak wall/support weapons from the superior British/American infantry and I would always take this tank over the Ostwind, even for the AI role as it can fight armour and shoot down the occasional plane with the pintle.





i agree that allied heavy armor and some heavys from the AXIS side have too good rear armor and cause of that doesnt promote flanking,which can simply be fixed by nerfing the rear armor part and buffing the frontal one(so tank destroyers pen front,medium tanks can pen rear part)but NOT by buffing the penetration of the P4 this will just make it penetrate the frontal part of the heavys more often so in a sence it wont promote flanking AT ALL
3 Nov 2015, 12:56 PM
#40
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392



Pershing doesn't lose to panther unless bad micro or RNG.
Pershing has brutal performance against infantry/at guns.Panther zero.
Panther requires massive teching,pershing free call-in.
Wehrmacht has panther as it lacked 60 range tank destroyer,usf by design wasn't supposed to get heavy tank with jackson best td in the game but still got pershing.



so is to get 13 cp for a damn heavy,also OKW bring their panther when shermans or t34s arrive

this guy will explain why the pershing is a total fail of a tank with current stats
https://steamcommunity.com/app/231430/discussions/0/496880203075196548/

also the jagdpanzer 4 is the best tank destroyer NOT the jackson
and again read the guys post from the steam forums,he details WHY the pershing aint a heavy but more like a medium tank BUT is classified as one
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