Remove ML-20 from the game

Hello Op, the unit is fine. You probably need to learn how to properly use the howitzer.

Check this cast for example. Top 2vs2 in which the ML20 was keeping the allies in the game and had over 40 kills in the end of the game.



Howitzers are fine, they do their job, they are not over-performing and usually its better that they are a bit UP instead of being OP, because games where its all about arty are boring and require no skill (see leig/pack howi meta).

If you have problems properly using a howitzer feel free to open a thread in the strategy desk.

Also remove "xyz" from the game are usually rants from people that are angry a single unit didn't win the game for them.

[..]The other day I warned allies about a barrage but they just ignored it and rolled straight through the impact area and the tragic comedy was that nobody even got a scratch because the AOE is so small and the spread is huge so it didn't hit anything. It would take something like three ML-20 barraging the same area for it to be a dangerous zone.

I'm pretty sure there's a damage reduction modifier on friendly units. You could try it out in cheatmod.

That said, the ML-20 is not in a good place now.

pretty butthurt tbh. what about his argument about pak43?

I agree with it pretty much, but not sure what to do about it. Pak43 is more of a live with it case. It's not comparable because the gun itself performs well, the ML-20 doesn't.

well said

How is that well said? He clearly misunderstood.

L2P, still useful if you know how to use it.

So many useless units in the game, ML-20 is not one of them.

L2P, still useful if you know how to use it.

It shoots exploding stuff at the area you mark. The more enemies in the area the higher the chance of killing something. It's impossible to flank anybody with it since its stuck in the ground where you build it.

It shoots exploding stuff at the area you mark. The more enemies in the area the higher the chance of killing something. It's impossible to flank anybody with it since its stuck in the ground where you build it.

How about Smoke and ... shoot?

i believe the ML-20 needs its old damage back,the fact that it has only 40 more damage then the german counterpart is just awful.


but i have to say even with its current awful state,the ml-20 does wonders against static OKW players.

The ML-20 is lackluster. For 600 MP you get a gun that can do great damage, or more likely, just fire and hit nothing. This is a serious problem because the ML-20 is designed to counter super heavy German tanks, which it cannot do as of right now. The LeFH is a better option all around, and even that is not terribly impressive.

Meanwhile, the Kat can't hold a candle to the Werfer.

How about Smoke and ... shoot?

That's a good idea! Or I was thinking shoot n scoot. You know...without the scooting.

The ML-20 is lackluster. For 600 MP you get a gun that can do great damage, or more likely, just fire and hit nothing. This is a serious problem because the ML-20 is designed to counter super heavy German tanks, which it cannot do as of right now. The LeFH is a better option all around, and even that is not terribly impressive.

Meanwhile, the Kat can't hold a candle to the Werfer.

The ML20 is not designed to counter heavy tanks, it exists to counter turtling, if your opponent doesn't turtle, then there's nothing to counter, hence it performs bad in this situations.
The B4 is designed to counter heavy tanks, as it has the DMG and the abilities to do so.

Again check the casts, it shows how to use it and in which situations.

Give all heavy artillery a big AoE buff for the area which is not lethal (keeping mid and near damage and buffing far damage so it does like, maybe ~20 damage in a wide area). Adding suppression is an option. Turret jam or glas block damaged as criticals on tanks and a higher rate of fire. Add 1 or 2 (or even more) of those suggestions and: tadaaa! It's finally useful again!

No matter how much you buff the ML20 it will not be useful until its relationship to offmaps is changed.


Give the Stuka dive bomb 0.2 damage modifier versus static artillery (the gun, not the crew). There are target tables in the game now, so it can be done.

Static artillery emplacements are already vulnerable to literally everything short of Rear Echelons that gets into range. Howies should punish an enemy for camping and make him want to attack it at close range.

However, currently they punish the person who built it. Currently I consider the ML20 a sort of a "resource conversion" ability that exchanges 600 of your manpower to drain the enemy of 160 ammo .

Before balancing it, I want to know what it feels like to have an ML20 up for longer than 20 seconds after the first barrage in team games. The prevalence of Stuka dive bomb doctrines is the primary culprit. This makes the ML20 a really binary choice. It is not countered, but rather ULTRA hard countered by any sort of offmap. I don't think there is any other ability that is so dependent on enemy commander choices. There is no counterplay, nothing. Just one click negation of a 600MP unit.

Maybe, without offmaps taking it out, I could live with the rng and the scatter, if I could use it to consistently barrage the map.

Tweak other offmaps and the LeFH, if you must, of course. I don't care.

If you want ML-20 to kill tanks, then you must remove the gun and place it on a Assault gun, thats how you manage to kill tanks with it (ISU-152) , otherwise it can make capping VP´s and other key areas dangerous for your opponent, until the STUKA comes

The ML20 is not designed to counter heavy tanks, it exists to counter turtling, if your opponent doesn't turtle, then there's nothing to counter, hence it performs bad in this situations.
The B4 is designed to counter heavy tanks, as it has the DMG and the abilities to do so.

Again check the casts, it shows how to use it and in which situations.

B4 counters heavy tanks ahahaha thanks for that laugh

No matter how much you buff the ML20 it will not be useful until its relationship to offmaps is changed.

Give the Stuka dive bomb 0.2 damage modifier versus static artillery (the gun, not the crew). There are target tables in the game now, so it can be done.

It is not countered, but rather ULTRA hard countered by any sort of offmap. I don't think there is any other ability that is so dependent on enemy commander choices. There is no counterplay, nothing. Just one click negation of a 600MP unit.

I think those bombs has to do damage or it would be a bit ridiculous. I'm thinking giving it cloaking abilities. Camouflaging the gun feels easier to accept than a 50kg bomb nog doing the damage it should. It needs to not blip-show up while firing either. That's a bit unrealistic with the big bangs it makes but easier to accept with cloaking ability.

B4 counters heavy tanks ahahaha thanks for that laugh

Ever used the new direct fire?

Even disregarding it completely, while its still RNG machine, one shot can chip 50% of tanks health.
It never hits directly, but well, it can.

I think those bombs has to do damage or it would be a bit ridiculous.

Well I mean offmaps need to make a punch of course, it's a heavy ammo investment after all. It is a bit unrealistic for a 50kg bomb but one could argue the way the ML20's own shells only tickle infantry directly outside the immediate blast radius is also unrealistic, which nobody seems to mind (okay they mind as this thread clearly shows, but they mind in the sense of unit usability, not authenticity).

Make it so it kills the crew but leaves the gun at 10% hit points or something. So 2 mortar hits or 1 grenade or one tank shot PLUS the Stuka will destroy it outright. Is it too much to ask that a player has to get at least one damage-dealing unit within 40 game units of a static 600 manpower unit in order to destroy it with a Stuka strike?

If you really want to get creative, make the Stuka hit add a critical that disables firing until fully fixed but also reduces received repairs to 33% speed.

Stuka bomb crippling the gun, knocking it out of action for a long time is okay. Instantly being able to remove a 600 manpower support weapon from the game at a click of a button from the comfort of your own base - not okay.

but one could argue the way the ML20's own shells only tickle infantry directly outside the immediate blast radius is also unrealistic, which nobody seems to mind (okay they mind as this thread clearly shows, but they mind in the sense of unit usability, not authenticity).

I mind exactly this. That's why I created this thread of fury

Good suggestions the other stuff.

The ML20 is not designed to counter heavy tanks, it exists to counter turtling, if your opponent doesn't turtle, then there's nothing to counter, hence it performs bad in this situations.
The B4 is designed to counter heavy tanks, as it has the DMG and the abilities to do so.

Again check the casts, it shows how to use it and in which situations.

Actually Relic specifically stated that the Russian ML20 was designed to counter heavy tanks. They argued that the elephant was specifically made vulnerable to this kind of unit so that the Allied factions had a chance late game.

B4 is so impotent right now it makes Penals look useful.