Ostheer Panther/T4 is Overpriced/Underwhelming

PZ4s dont fight toe to toe with anything above jackons, stugs do though.

IMO PV could get a slight buff to AI, but the real issue as it´s been pointed out by everybody is teching and building price.

Suggestions:

1)Lower building price by a LOT (both MP and Fuel).
2)Remove the need of a building, make it the same as T3, but with the units locked until u reach T4 (could make T4 cost a bit higher to compensate).

Brummbars veterancy game is absolutely horrid. It needs a vet requirement drop by 20%, bunker busting barrage vet 0, fuel cost to 145. And a shell velocity buff at vet 2. Thats what I'd do, the armor and health are fine. The cost, veterancy gain, and accuracy/shell velocity aren't.

The Panther has been neutered throughout the patches. Now it´s pretty much a joke imo.

The Panther is shit for a simple reason: The dps is lower than that of a Panzer IV due to a terrible rate of fire.

A Panzer IV or StuG is sufficient to do the job and will arrive way earlier. The Panzer IV also is good versus infantry. No reason for me to go Panther at all.

pretty sure the last change made to the panther was buffing its armor to 320, which was the change that made it popular in the first place.

I agree that the Brummbar needs a buff, but I think it can come in the form of tweaking it's accuracy or projectile than messing with costs. The same thing can be said about the sherman dozer btw, it is basically a Brummbar lite and it's main gun suffers from the same reliability problems.

I can see making the T4 building slightly cheaper a good change as well. I'd like to have the option to sacrifice mid-game power for a bigger tank as opposed to now when you are better off sticking with T3 in most cases.

Panther is completely fine, no way it needs a buff. Panther with Pak support is incredibly strong.

If we compare WER TIER 4 with SOV TIER 4 we can see that:

-Wer -> Premium Elite Tier
-Sov -> Tottaly Crap, Overpriced, Tier

First of all, the poll is rigged, don't call the last option regarding Sturmpanzers "No, I enjoy seeing it suck" because that doesn't leave anyone with many options, and in fact I would have voted until I saw that option, so in future please leave polls with a decent amount of openness.

@bicho1 Try to keep all of your thoughts to one post, spreading them over two just looks a bit hectic. Don't mean to upset you, it's just tidier this way. Thanks.

And I've had to invis one post so far and another is borderline offensive so stick to not tearing each other's throats out and name calling please.

On topic: I'd like to see tier 4 maybe get a price decrease for the building by 25/30 fuel, I only use it vs Shock Rifle in 1v1 and in luxury long 2v2s.

That's exactly my point.

The tech fuel cost delay T4 so much, then you pay so much for these tanks, yet they dont give as much shock value. (Think about OKW Panther timing and Ostheer Panther.)

Been forced to go T3 due to meta is what delays T4. Maybe it's time for OH to start paying to unlock LMG, Faust and nades and make teching far cheaper.

I'll say it again. Access to mediums for SU and USF is almost equal in cost with OH if they go straight T4 skipping T3.
There's only a 10f difference with both allied factions when USF gets Ambulance + Bars + Nades and Soviets get Medics + Molotovs + AT nades.


At this point, i think some people would prefer to be forced to tech T3 in order to get T4, but having the cost hugely reduced. This will make BP3 redundant, which could be changed into a 5th man for Grens/PG (this making it a late game upgrade).

Brummar should have its fuel price lowered to 150 and accuracy upped a little bit.

Though what's with this vote, I have to vote between "it's shit" and "i like seeing it shit"

pretty sure the last change made to the panther was buffing its armor to 320, which was the change that made it popular in the first place.

Nay, I'm certain he was talking about the old Panther (this is from way way back, i think near game release). Which used to cost 150 fuel IIRC. Also, they decreased its HP from 960 to 800 but added 160 hp as a vet 2 bonus, and decreased its vet 2 armor bonus from 30% to 10%. They upped the fuel price several times, except one time when they decreased it, they made it 165 then 175 fu IIRC. (at one point it was 130 fuel. Imagine! ) Idk about the other stats though. All this was before the armor buff to 320, which is what most people nowadays know about.

I'm pretty sure that guy was talking about all of that when he was talking about how the Panther has been nerfed. Mind you, I'm not advocating a return to those days (Panthers were downright unkillable back then. Except if they got rammed )

Ok, end of history lesson. On Topic:

Long wall of text below, see the summary if you don't have time.
Show Spoiler

Summary of wall of text: Panther is too specialized to be useful as an AT vehicle except against Jacksons and IS2. This is due to its high cost, low RoF and teching cost of T4, which prevents deploying it in numbers (and in fact it should always be outnumbered when first deployed), in which situation its bad at killing enemy armor. Good at damaging. Bad at killing and chasing.

Brummbar shares role with Ostwind, and is more expensive hence worthless. Except lobbing shells over shotblockers.

T4 is too expensive to get alongside T3. Which means no panzerwerfer and hence no arty in most 1v1 games because T3 is essential in an equal game.

My suggestions:

Ost Panther should get RoF buff. Its timing in the game prevents its use one-on-one and its only use is as a defensive backstop, but the StuG is twice as good in that department.

Or maybe give it a stun shot with a higher aim time at vet1 instead of blitz which can only be used when stationary? That way it could maybe kill something once in a while instead of just causing dmg and forcing things back? [I think it would need some kind of nerf if it got this, not sure what. Suggested this because it seems to fit its current profile as a long range standoff vehicle]

The alternative would be to restructure T4 cost, decreasing it because you have to make the Ost Panther work late game, which it currently doesn't on its own. I can see it becoming really powerful in a combined arms force of pz4s and/or StuGs but on its own, as it currently is (and has to be due to tech costs) its not cost effective.

And move the werfer to HQ and tie it to BP3. With the tech fuel costs as they stand, its not feasable to get without skipping T3 entirely. And thats just asking for disaster. Unless T4 gets restructured.

Here's an idea I just had. How about moving all the T4 vehicles into the T3 building but increasing fuel costs of Panther and Brummbar? Then BP3 can be a 45-75 fuel (number not set, we can finetune it if the feedback indicates that the sommunity likes this idea) upgrade which reduces the fuel costs to current levels (maybe 150fu for Brummbar).

The problem is relic said they gave players the chance to skip Battlephases.But as ostheer,you can hardly skip T3.You simply need that Stug or Ostwind to counter the Allies in mid games. If you skip the T3, you sucks due to the bad map control.Even though you get one panther which is only good at anti-tank,what can you do then?You still lose.

Compared to the new faction,they can easily tech to the heavier tier after they've got a Centaur or a Cromwell.Costing less to tech,then a Comet or a Churchill hits the ground...Also the brits can skip the medium tier to directly tech up.The cost is nealy equal to the cost which OH spend skiping to T4.

So the issue is the Ostheer BPs and tech buildings cost.Meanwhile the underperforming brumbar should be a more attractive anti-infantry option compared to the T3 ostwind. Otherwise, why do people choose this unit when they must skip Battlephases first?

Proposal solution:
BP2 cost from 100MP/45fuel to 100MP/100fuel
Tier3cost from 260MP/75fuel to 260MP/20fuel
BP3 cost doesn't need changes,100MP/45fuel
Tier4cost from 260MP/75fuel to 260MP/20fuel

So the required MP/fuel of T3 units is not changed, the required MP/fuel of skiping T3 is not changed too.But OH players can tech up to T4 more easily after getting a T3 unit.I mean if the brits is fine when they tech easily to the heavier tier,why not about ostheer?

This is what I always say,ostheer don't have a light armor tier,it makes no sense they have a heavy armor tier but can't build them at all.

If the problem is only Panther rush, then why not lower T4 cost, and add an "Panther Requisition" upgrade or something (like Brits) for like 2-30 fuel.

This way you can get Werfer and Brummbar a bit faster. If you go for a Brumbar you have to rely on your pack wall which is not that reliable.

It bugs me that the fuel starved version of the German army can shit out a panther tank first, but that's about it. The units are all good, I just think they could come out faster.

They shit out some Panthers disgusied as M10 just to fool the Merican, so why not?

I am still waiting for the OKW Operation Grief doctrine, wasn't it famous enough to make one?

The problem is relic said they gave players the chance to skip Battlephases.But as ostheer,you can hardly skip T3.You simply need that Stug or Ostwind to counter the Allies in mid games. If you skip the T3, you sucks due to the bad map control.Even though you get one panther which is only good at anti-tank,what can you do then?You still lose.

Compared to the new faction,they can easily tech to the heavier tier after they've got a Centaur or a Cromwell.Costing less to tech,then a Comet or a Churchill hits the ground...Also the brits can skip the medium tier to directly tech up.The cost is nealy equal to the cost which OH spend skiping to T4.

This. This is exactly what I meant.

I mean if the brits is fine when they tech easily to the heavier tier,why not about ostheer?

Because brits get only a single unit instead of three, which still is inferior to panther in tank to tank combat and survivability?

Just a thought.

The amount of clustergarden in this thread is...... Lovely?

But to the topic: Panther in it's current performance is ok, it doesn't need to come any earlier, it's ment to be late game tank, not something that you get on the field at 12 minutes and faceroll everything that moves on tracks/wheels at that point

Brummbär on the other hand needs a little buff, maybe some accuracy and more aoe to actually get rid of houses more effectively, armor/mobility wise it's ok, but a little hp buff might be nice also

Most biased poll ever. If you want to know people opinions, maybe start with proper choices instead of "No, I enjoy seeing it suck".

Because brits get only a single unit instead of three, which still is inferior to panther in tank to tank combat and survivability?

Just a thought.

But they get 3 special skills including the free Royal Engineer LMG upgrade and free Blitz ability. IMO it's fair enough. Ost T4 units are not good at doing everything.

The comet can be a counterpart of the panther. Survivability? That's what the Churchill has.

But they get 3 special skills including the free Royal Engineer LMG upgrade and free Blitz ability. IMO it's fair enough. Ost T4 units are not good at doing everything.

A satchel charge that crits vehicles when someone is stupid enough not to drive out of it.
A speed bonus that every single axis tank have as vet1 ability.
Ability to "track" armor when it gets out of los for few seconds.
And inferior panther that can fight infantry with a faction that doesn't struggle with AI firepower.

Or

Ability to see what actually decaps your point.
Base arty "improvement" so it actually have a chance to hit something.
Heavy engi upgrade, which makes them better in combat and repairs while making them grenade magnets.
And slightly stronger KV-1(post patch).

Hardly comparable to panther, pwerfer that eradicates whatever team weapon it fires upon.
And well, brummbar being brummbar, its not bad, but it doesn't blind anyone with awesomeness, I've seen some awesome comebacks thanks to it as well as miserable failures, I got nothing here.

Hammer or anvil aren't that bad(the side bonuses), but it hardly justifies proper T4 costs considering it doesn't improve unit variety and grants you pretty much single specialist.

Survivability? That's what the Churchill has.

Only to the patch day. Low speed, low armor for a heavy, whatever AT weapon pretty much always penetrating it.

It will be repair practice tank, not a dmg sponge.

I find the Brummbar and the Panther to be great, but i could see T4 being a bit cheaper.