Ostheer Panther/T4 is Overpriced/Underwhelming

T4 price needs fix.
Brummbarr needs buff.

PV is fine. Brummbar needs a buff.
Now the real deal.

T4 is a tricky situation. To put it simple: meta play and timing are the issues.

SU: no one gets T4 as T3 options into call in play is way more effective and will give you an earlier way to bleed mp against your opponent. Katyusha was stealth nerf, Su85 is not spectacular and not necessary when there are other options and T34-76 has absolute no shock value. So you play heavily with light vehicles into/or call ins.

USF: long are gone the days of Sherman rushes. Most people will prefer to play a heavy infantry play with light vehicles (M20, AAHT, Stuart). LT + Captain are not rare and people would just skip major, specially if they play with Armor commander.

UKF: i'll limit to say that i think that fuel-wise T3 is too cheap. Upgrades are not necessary atm (which could delay tech) so you have a quick Centaur which is really punishing.

Teching cost for USF-SU-OH, considering upgrades as necessary.
Show Spoiler

T4 is expensive as long as you also tech T3. A soviet player going T4 with molo + At nades spends equally to OH going T4 by skipping T3.
T3 allows a counter-offensive against light vehicle play while T4 is just too passive of an option. Basically you are forced to use T3, as T4 is actually not needed most of the time.

The brummbär is a joke. Compare it with the Avre, which only cost 140 fuel and then tell me again it's fine without being a complete hypocrite. The brummbär needs to be more accurate and needs to have more armour and health.

The poll is not properly built. I mean T4 is ok but it's overpriced. Panther is ok doesn't need buffs or anything but it's overpriced. Brumbar is okish.
Alternatively, you can do this:
var.1 - decrease Panther cost
var.2 - decrease T4 cost
var.3 - decrease teching to T4 cost.

Brummbär is a great unit besides the fucked up pathing.
I can't remember any Brummbär I built that didn't die because of turning all around instead of driving backwards.

IMO Ostheer panther is current underwhelming or overpriced.
(Strictly Ostheer panther, NOT OKW version)
or generally Ostheer T4 compared to T3.

1) Panther
it cost 175 fuel itself and 45 extra for tech, if you rush it ignoring T3

as a dedicated inf tank, which it is not supposed to be, Brummbar should do the job

as a General medium tank, it doesn't kill infantry reliably, only armed with that pintle MG.
For that we have much cheaper Panzer IV and Call in Tiger that do MUCH better (especially after Tiger gun pen buff)

as a dedicated tank destroyer, the gun fires too damn slow, penetration is meh for that RoF. Range is only underwhelming 50. Damage is also same as others: 160. In short, DPS is too low.
For that we also have spammable StuG G, with much better RoF and same Range.For the same fuel cost, you can nearly make 3 StuGs.
Prime example: Churchill. StuG does the job much better.

as frontline unit, the armor is meh now that we have SU76, self spotting SU85, Jackson, Firefly.

Suggestion: Panther needs a cost decrease, or slight buff on its gun.
-- Either increase the range to 60 as other allied TD,
-- or increase RoF so it doesn't look like shit in front of StuG and SU,
-- or do 200 damage like Jackson, since it fires so slowly already.
Right now there isn't much reason to get panther when you can spam StuG, or mix with Panzer IV/Ostwind, or Tiger.

2) Brummbar
it cost 160 fuel itself and 45 extra for tech, if you rush it ignoring T3

as a dedicated inf tank, it SUCKS.
The DPS is simply too unstable. Sometimes it hits and kills half the squad, sometimes it doesn't hit anything at all, this is somewhat dependent on the Geometry and where the projectile lands.
Seems like the pintle MG kills even more than that 150mm gun.
Right now Panzerwerfer is much more reliably than Brummbar, assuming you have no access to T3

as a General medium tank, it lacks mobility.

as a dedicated tank destroyer, which isn't supposed to be. (even though in game description, Relic writes, "150mm gun can smash through everything, even tanks")

as frontline unit, the armor is only 260. now that we have SU76, self spotting SU85, Jackson, Firefly.
The chance of not getting penetrated is negligible.

Suggestion: Brummbar needs its gun performance fixed, or slight buff on its weapon or survivability.
-- Fix the projectile travel velocity like ISU or any other tank so it hits the target.
-- Either increase the range of its gun + slight penetration buff,
-- or Increase RoF
-- or give it health/armor buff

Again there isn't much reason to get Brummbar when you can get Ostwind as dedicated AI
or general medium Panzer IV that can fight tanks, or Tiger.

3) Panzerwerfer: Good Spot

panter are OP over power !!!!! panter eats USF tanks for brekfest and all medium sovit tanks too
even the mighty brits cant stand the panter with there armore the COMET 1 v 1 thet is even higher by cost per unit cant win 1 v 1 a panter

IMO Ostheer panther is current underwhelming or overpriced.
(Strictly Ostheer panther, NOT OKW version)
or generally Ostheer T4 compared to T3.

1) Panther
it cost 175 fuel itself and 45 extra for tech, if you rush it ignoring T3

as a dedicated inf tank, which it is not supposed to be, Brummbar should do the job

as a General medium tank, it doesn't kill infantry reliably, only armed with that pintle MG.
For that we have much cheaper Panzer IV and Call in Tiger that do MUCH better (especially after Tiger gun pen buff)

as a dedicated tank destroyer, the gun fires too damn slow, penetration is meh for that RoF. Range is only underwhelming 50. Damage is also same as others: 160. In short, DPS is too low.
For that we also have spammable StuG G, with much better RoF and same Range.For the same fuel cost, you can nearly make 3 StuGs.
Prime example: Churchill. StuG does the job much better.

as frontline unit, the armor is meh now that we have SU76, self spotting SU85, Jackson, Firefly.

Suggestion: Panther needs a cost decrease, or slight buff on its gun.
-- Either increase the range to 60 as other allied TD,
-- or increase RoF so it doesn't look like shit in front of StuG and SU,
-- or do 200 damage like Jackson, since it fires so slowly already.
Right now there isn't much reason to get panther when you can spam StuG, or mix with Panzer IV/Ostwind, or Tiger.

2) Brummbar
it cost 160 fuel itself and 45 extra for tech, if you rush it ignoring T3

as a dedicated inf tank, it SUCKS.
The DPS is simply too unstable. Sometimes it hits and kills half the squad, sometimes it doesn't hit anything at all, this is somewhat dependent on the Geometry and where the projectile lands.
Seems like the pintle MG kills even more than that 150mm gun.
Right now Panzerwerfer is much more reliably than Brummbar, assuming you have no access to T3

as a General medium tank, it lacks mobility.

as a dedicated tank destroyer, which isn't supposed to be. (even though in game description, Relic writes, "150mm gun can smash through everything, even tanks")

as frontline unit, the armor is only 260. now that we have SU76, self spotting SU85, Jackson, Firefly.
The chance of not getting penetrated is negligible.

Suggestion: Brummbar needs its gun performance fixed, or slight buff on its weapon or survivability.
-- Fix the projectile travel velocity like ISU or any other tank so it hits the target.
-- Either increase the range of its gun + slight penetration buff,
-- or Increase RoF
-- or give it health/armor buff

Again there isn't much reason to get Brummbar when you can get Ostwind as dedicated AI
or general medium Panzer IV that can fight tanks, or Tiger.

3) Panzerwerfer: Good Spot

for exmple i am a usf player you get a panter how i conter him ?
thets right jakson + ATGS never sow thet jakson or ATGS kill infentry better then a panter with an mg

in one tank u get anti tank and anti inf not a good one but still as a usf player i need to wast much more to conter u and try to ceep up with ur army cos my jakson and ATGS wont hold the lins with ur inf

so i need a shurman but u eat this for brekfest so what i do ? cry in the corner :9

sorry for bad english

The brummbär is a joke. Compare it with the Avre, which only cost 140 fuel and then tell me again it's fine without being a complete hypocrite. The brummbär needs to be more accurate and needs to have more armour and health.

How come everyone can be a strategist these days? The brummbar is amazing, it only lacks a bit of armor.

Snip

Relic didnt offers u a balance Job yet? What a Shane tbh

Relic didnt offers u a balance Job yet? What a Shane tbh

well if u are sarcastic and u think i am wrong fix me what did i told wrong ?

well if u are sarcastic and u think i am wrong fix me what did i told wrong ?

noob l2p. You are already crying here.
SU76 SU85 Jackson all eat Panther for breakfast due to superior range, post patch penetration buff and SU85 has self spot.
Firefly can take down 75% of panther health with its alpha damage with rockets.
AT Guns are all reliable counter to panther.

Then you have Soviet Super heavy ISU IS2, Comet, Pershing coming soon.

And it's a tank that cost 175 fuel. (plus extra tech+building fuel cost)

Even bazookas PTRS can damage it to a certain extent, given panther lacks anti inf power

noob l2p. You are already crying here.
SU76 SU85 Jackson all eat Panther for breakfast due to superior range, post patch penetration buff and SU85 has self spot.
Firefly can take down 75% of panther health with its alpha damage with rockets.
AT Guns are all reliable counter to panther.

Then you have Soviet Super heavy ISU IS2, Comet, Pershing coming soon.

And it's a tank that cost 175 fuel. (plus extra tech+building fuel cost)

Even bazookas PTRS can damage it to a certain extent, given panther lacks anti inf power

so u wanna say usf AT guns penetrat panters ? or i need to wasst tones of ammo on my atgs or just watch round bouns mighty german armore

and man i just told u thet jakson will conter him but in witch cost ? i need a jakson + atgs and they wont help me vs ur inf wille ur panter can kill inf and tanks


in witch dream in pro games panter stands on one place so u hit him with rockets from firefly ?
fire fly again this tank is good vs ather tanks wille ur tank is good vs tanks +inf
fire fly shoot sow slow ...

and lol zooks u are funny give me shreks then u will cry ...

panter 1 v 1 with a commet = panter wins [commet costs more ]
why u even bring the commet in panter survie with half or less hp vs a commet


if u know thet there are no mines in the place u can owne every medium tank with panter 1v1 jakson ,commet
shurman m10 ...

noob l2p. You are already crying here.
SU76 SU85 Jackson all eat Panther for breakfast due to superior range, post patch penetration buff and SU85 has self spot.
Firefly can take down 75% of panther health with its alpha damage with rockets.
AT Guns are all reliable counter to panther.

Then you have Soviet Super heavy ISU IS2, Comet, Pershing coming soon.

And it's a tank that cost 175 fuel. (plus extra tech+building fuel cost)

Even bazookas PTRS can damage it to a certain extent, given panther lacks anti inf power

i am not the best player i am the avrage meaby usf are really good with great micro this faction is the best but i am not a machin i do mistakes but with germans u need less micro so u do less mistakes cos of the strong german armore good LMG better atgs thet penetrate more and u dont need to click to penetrate


when i play 1 v 1 as allice some times i find players thet didnt even got first pristige on germans side but when i play wermaht or okw i mostly find max LVL players why ? [i am same ranks with usf and wermaht

cos its ezer to play germans thets why when i paly allice i find newer players then when i play germans and i find mostly max LVLS

Fixing the fuel cost of the building would do atleast a bit. Panther is currently in a good spot, perhaps some better Penetration because of the high armour values (?!?). Brummbärr needs some love, since it is 90% of the time a waste of resources.

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To build on this the comet costs 200/50 to tech to after you get your first tank out And that includes what 3 other buffs/upgrades? The panther costs 360/115 its double the cost with far fewer immediate benifits

It just doesn't make much sense.

Show Spoiler

To build on this the comet costs 200/50 to tech to after you get your first tank out And that includes what 3 other buffs/upgrades? The panther costs 360/115 its double the cost with far fewer immediate benifits

It just doesn't make much sense.

That's exactly my point.

The tech fuel cost delay T4 so much, then you pay so much for these tanks, yet they dont give as much shock value. (Think about OKW Panther timing and Ostheer Panther.)

1. Speak fucking English.
2. Learn to spell.
3. Don't make this into an Allied vs Axis OP imbalance thread.
4. Show me your playercard and ranks before spamming long posts like you know much better.
5. Lastly I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say.

its my player card
my steam ID 76561198038199828 i can add u at steam if u dont belive ...

1. you know i am right so you dont have any thing to tell back
2.all i told are facts ...
3.and i was talking about the avrage player not proes like you.you probebly mostly play vs jova so ye vs jova anything is under power
4.oo and sorry for bad english i will try to get better just for you baby

The tech fuel cost delay T4 so much, then you pay so much for these tanks, yet they dont give as much shock value. (Think about OKW Panther timing and Ostheer Panther.)

That's intentional. OKW gets fast access to panthers because of it's fuel penalty.
If whermacht got it at the same time it would be terribly OP, because they have the fuel to actually maintain constant production of them.

The Panther has been neutered throughout the patches. Now it´s pretty much a joke imo.

The Panther is shit for a simple reason: The dps is lower than that of a Panzer IV due to a terrible rate of fire.

A Panzer IV or StuG is sufficient to do the job and will arrive way earlier. The Panzer IV also is good versus infantry. No reason for me to go Panther at all.