British Anvil Churchill, and my thoughts.

This is not a whine thread, so no one get all uppity over this, this is my observation thats all, with hopefully a few suggestions in terms of balance/meta, and I am unbiased as you will see in this post. As always, as long as they are not biased or claims of OP, all comments are welcome, as well as opinions.

So as we all know, the Brits have 2 divergent final tech upgrades, the Hammer(Comet), or the Anvil(Churchill), my main problem comes with the Churchill, this unit is very cheap, and in 2v2 and up games, very much able to be produced in huge numbers, to me this is not so much balance, as it is an issue in the Meta(Maybe balance but idk?), from my play the game delves back into what Relic had tried to reduce heavy tank play/reliance by implementing a heavy limit to call ins, which has worked out great thus far, with the Brits we can see as many as three Churchills in a game depending on duration, map control, and the tactics the other team employs(such as saving fuel and playing infantry and AT gun heavy play). This is again, somewhat bringing the meta back to heavy tank reliance for the Brits ONLY.

Solution(s)/Thoughts:
The Churchill is a heavy, though not call in, it is a heavy, lets emplace a limit on that as well, one at a time, per player(Like the call in theory), this will employ players to use the tank in its more suitable role, of being a damage sponge, while using Firefly's behind it as the dmg dealer(This rule would also apply, to the King Tiger as well, with being allowed one at a time, not multiples, don't worry). This would again influence more combined arms play. The Comet in my opinion is not a heavy tank, to me it fits more of a medium style role and would be exempt from this limit, as well as the fact that is does have a much much higher cost than the Churchill, but does perform better in almost all roles it has.

Another idea would be to increase the Churchills cost, the reason behind this is simply its not as expensive to build, therefore you can get multiples with some degree of ease, but I don't think that is AS reasonable as the limitations on it, seeing as its AT performance is no where near worthy of a cost increase.

Conclusion:
Simply put, I was enjoying the expansion of combined arms play prior to the Brits, this had the made game rather stagnant, seeing as I play both sides of the game as an Axis(Mostly), and Allies(Whenver I can) the strategies get rather predictable with the Brits, if you see Anvil engineers, expect multiple Churchills at some point possibly(Not including a call in Churchill), I would just like to see this added so people would be encouraged to use the Cromwells and their speed for flanking, or Firefly’s using the Churchill as a sheild to soak up damage as they take down the enemy armor ahead. Thanks for reading, and any of your thoughts and feedback you may give.

Cheers,
Tech

Quite a reasonable post, and I agree with your suggestion of a limit.

The Churchill is indeed a heavy tank, it even gets the heavy skins. It should be given the 1 tank limit.
King Tiger should as well, I have never understood why it was exempt.

Also, someone please ban Mr. ****stone.

The thread is ask for nerfing churchill, while the ultimate Uber-heavy-tank stay unchanged, AKA jadgtiger/elefant.....

If allies doesn't have enough damage sponge to stand against JT/Elefant or KT, expecting teamed game with 80% WR on Axis side exactly like before. Churchill is a heavy tank no doubt, but it's not near comparable with the ultimate heavy tank which Axis has access to. A price increase should be enough.

And Comet, the 77mm doesn't have projectile means it's 9 impossible for comet to finish off a german Panzer with Smoke&Blitz combo,

For Firefly sucks at speed,ROF, firefly will only be usefull if the tullip hits. And its gun also have no projectile.

U can also spam panther army just 25 fuel more than churchill, and if u use range advantage u can beat any churchill spam and limit the panthers too pls.

The Churchill should only have a limit of 1 if it's replaced by the Black Prince

If u want put a limit of 1 churchill, KT should get it too, not that I would oppose that.

If u want put a limit of 1 churchill, KT should get it too, not that I would oppose that.

Getting a second KT is impossible in 1v1 and 2v2, heck getting one is extremely hard as OKW in 1v1. The balance resolves around 1v1 mainly. Your argument holds no value.

Getting a second churchill in a 1v1, now that is something that is possible, very possible.

Agree.

The churchhill has wayyyy too much armor and health for a "medium" tank. Its a heavy tank and should be balanced accordingly. 1600HP and the damage profile of a cromwell is a ridiculous bargain for its cost and currently the fact that it can drive face first into a wall of AT guns, shoot one, grenade the other, and still drive away is ludicrous.


With more than one you can't even use tank destroyers effectively because the churchills will simply drive within melee range, penetrate you tank from the front (panthers cough) and then drive onward.

I had 2 panthers and a jagdpanther get completely obliterated by 3 churchills in a head on fight with my opponent only losing a single churchill. Which makes complete sense seeing as he has a health pool of 4800 vs a health pools of 2400, and yet both tanks do identical damage when armor values are taken out of the equation. Focus fire 3 churchills on one panther, bam its dead in 2 volleys. Whereas a single churchill can take 10 shots from a bloody panther!

That is completely fucked to me.

On top of that their ultra survivability basically guarantees vet as their almost impossible to destroy.

So yes something needs to be done about them.

The tank is fine on its own, the issue starts when the healthpool becomes so massive that they can counter their hardcounters. They are almost impossible to kill so once you see one, there is going to be another and so on, the snowball effect is unavoidable. This is made 100,000X worse if you put jacksons or SU-76's behind the churchills. You can't compete with axis TD's unless you have something like a jadgtiger, but not very game has that luxury. The churchill can simply outpace your ability to counter with TD's as I experienced first hand...

Either a price increase or a hard cap would make sense and encourage people to actually invest in tank destroyers instead of the ultimate sponge tank that can basically kill everything in the game. Oh and lets not even talk about the Croco because I am still in shock that unit even exists in the game in its current incarnation.

Play 1v1. Game balance and overall enjoyment is so much better.

Seriously use StuG III or get some heavy hitters in large team games.

You guys should really consider that it cost 50 fuel to specialize into anvil, before buying the churchill. (Which is also expensive on man power.)

It also is stupid slow, meaning that it's only chance of escape is to pop smoke.

It's tough, but if you isolate it from the rest of the british army it's very easy to mop it up.

You guys should really consider that it cost 50 fuel to specialize into anvil, before buying the churchill. (Which is also expensive on man power.)

It also is stupid slow, meaning that it's only chance of escape is to pop smoke.

It's tough, but if you isolate it from the rest of the british army it's very easy to mop it up.

It's only "chance" for escape is the fact that it has an extremely high acceleration value and 1600HP. If your opponent is letting his churchills get so far ahead of his army that they are being encircled and destroyed then he isn't very good.

If your opponent knows how to play then the churchill is a goddamn nightmare and will easily vet, plus popping smoke instantly slows the tank down. All he has to do is drive the damn thing away. Snaring the tank with an faust or a mine is the only way I have seen to reliably kill the tank and those are obviously RNG and luck dependent.

Oh and 50 fuel is hardly a big deal considering how cheap the tank is and how much health and armor you are getting in return. Plus considering they are nearly impossible to kill that fuel and manpower are well invested as you are almost never in danger of losing it.

it is extremely annoying how much damage the Churchill can soak up, but at the same time 280 armor isn't really that much. The kv-1 have 270 armor and it isn't really enough against the axis anti-tank.

the churchill would need to have 320 armor and 1040 hp at the least to be a good meatshield, maybe 320 armor and 1280 hp. It would also need a pop reduction as well. Right now it cost 18 pop, almost the same as the tiger's 19. If it get a hp nerf then it would need a pop reduction to ~16. Presumably stuff like the firefly and the HQ 25 pdr get a buff as well.

Anything less and it's going to be as useless as the kv-1. The kv-1 have been in varying states of useless ever since the doctrine was release.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and input, the only reason I dropped this in the balance section was because I wasn't sure if it would be a balance topic, general discussion, or what have you, this just seemed like a good place to discuss. Secondly I whole heartedly agree to 1 KT(it is mentioned in post), secondly these are just thoughts based on how readily available it is, not based on unit performance. Cost is a viable option to make it fall inline with other units availability as well, again I am here nor there on where it is currently by stats or cost, again just a thought. As far as the comment about 1v1's I'll be honest I just don't have the skills for it, and I prefer to play with friends. Undoubtedly it is a better more balanced mode, just not as good to make it fun for me(or my opponents lol). That's all.

It's only "chance" for escape is the fact that it has an extremely high acceleration value and 1600HP. If your opponent is letting his churchills get so far ahead of his army that they are being encircled and destroyed then he isn't very good.

If your opponent knows how to play then the churchill is a goddamn nightmare and will easily vet, plus popping smoke instantly slows the tank down. All he has to do is drive the damn thing away. Snaring the tank with an faust or a mine is the only way I have seen to reliably kill the tank and those are obviously RNG and luck dependent.

Oh and 50 fuel is hardly a big deal considering how cheap the tank is and how much health and armor you are getting in return. Plus considering they are nearly impossible to kill that fuel and manpower are well invested as you are almost never in danger of losing it.

High acceleration doesn't mean shit when it moves like an OKW halftrack.

The tank is some 500 manpower and 150 fuel. On top of the 200/50 Anvil specialization.

Is this the first time Axis only players have had to deal with heavy tanks or something?

Get some armour to counter it... to many ostheer are living in the past. If your fighting brits you NEED to get a StuG ASAP to counter both the centard and churchhill.

I do not agree at all with imposing a limit of one. It isn't a true Heavy Tank. It's an Infantry Support Tank. I would much rather see it's gun penetration or armour adjusted before anything else. Just my opinion.