JagdTiger and Elephant need counters

Problem:

With the JagTigers recent price change and the fact that we will be seeing more of them, I believe it's time to talk about it and it's little brother the Elephant. Notably it's general lack of any true counters.

Given these unit's huge armor, health, and range they are a extremely hard unit to take out. While they have a big price and rightfully dominate armor vs armor battles this leaves them extremely resistent to just about everything in the game. Leaving the only true way to combat them to completely overwhelm them with the very unit they are strong against.

Fighting them often requires the enemy player having a lack of support and if even moderately supported can be a impossible feat to actually damage in any way. And while in 1v1 a player can choose to fight elsewhere or exploit the lack of support it's cost might take, this situation becomes less and less likely in 2v2+ settings where allies can easily support them and their usage is more numerous.

Solution

All I would like is for some counterplay to be introduced so that players can effectively fight back and damage the super heavy TDs when completely routing it's support or overwhelming it with large numbers of tanks isn't possible. Which may look something like this:

Bazookas/PTRS/Piats +100% Penetration vs Elephant and JagdTiger
Zis-3/57mm/6-pounder +50% Penetration vs Elephant and JagdTiger
ML-20/Priest/Sexton/25-pounder +50% Damage vs Elephant and JagdTiger

*Numbers should not be taken exactly and are only meant to display intention

The intention being to allow infantry AT to actually do consistent damage to the Heavy TDs if they manage to flank or get within range. The TDs still will have large health pools and wouldn't be at too much risk but could be atleast damaged and forced away for repairs to allow allies a few moments with armored support to fight back.

As well the artillery changes, would give a more solid way to damage them in deadlocks if they opt for those. Especially in those more clustered 3v3+ modes where flanking isn't an option. Considering the low accuracy on artillery this should only allow them to premptively damage or finish off a weakened heavy TD as no more then 1-2 shots can usually hit per volley.

From my experience they seemed like a I win button since axis had access to superior infantry to make sure that nothing non-armored wouldn't come close, but I think we could wait a bit and see if the riflemen buff and other stuff made that argument gone. If that isn't the case I would like to see a change since swarming with tanks would be the only answer

Considering the massive buffs to Allied late game that have already happened I don't really think we need to twist the knife harder for Axis right now.

Tulips+mark target

I believe that the lack of mobility and flexibility, is qualitatively enough to prevent this recent, relatively minor quantitative buff from making them overpowered, and I question the necessity of them--indeed, anything--having full counters.

But I have to admit that the artillery change vs them is quite interesting.

I believe that the lack of mobility and flexibility, is qualitatively enough to prevent this recent, relatively minor quantitative buff from making them overpowered, and I question the necessity of them--indeed, anything--having full counters.

But I have to admit that the artillery change vs them is quite interesting.

Yeah in my mind artillery should be the ultimate deadlock breaker. Seeing a recent 4v4 while a Jagdtiger sat there chewing through a defensive line of allied TDs, mediums, and heavies all while being barraged by dual priests to minor effect is what inspired me to make this thread.

The sad thing is it was such a fun back and forth match up until that point. But even with a hugely varied allied force with just about every type of unit you could see from the allies, we were all powerless in the face of the Jagdtiger.

don't want this to become all about 4v4 though. It's still be really annoying when set up in the center of a 2v2 match as well.

Even getting to a Jadgtiger or Elefant in 2v2 right now is a miracle of god versus a good opponent so nerfing them would be uh, not very prime if you get my meaning.

You can't use them on every map (especially urban ones) and on open maps flanking them isn't that hard. The Jadgtiger even has a stun mechanic were you can easily stunlock it do death. They also removed focus sight from the Elefant meaning fortified armor Elefant can no longer self sight.

M10 spam, or anything else with marked target combo.

So many counters can do their job very well: all Brits commander larger area bombs abilities ,firefly spam rockets with the 1400HP churchill covering,churchill AVRE shell,mark target,guards lock vehicle +IL2 precision bomb,all American artellery pieces,M36 spams,P47,priest or sexton,etc.
Considering their slowest speed and terrible rotation speed and poor rear armor, they are not that good enough,already there are no players using the JT,dont nerf these units to ground pls.

sexton

Sexton itself isnt a counter to anything given its pitiful performance, somehow, compared to the priest.

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Most of the reliable counters are going to be British, and when it comes to 4v4, you are simply going to need at least one British teammate to take out heavy armor. Its practically why Relic designed them the way they are.

I hope for su 100

Yeah in my mind artillery should be the ultimate deadlock breaker. Seeing a recent 4v4 while a Jagdtiger sat there chewing through a defensive line of allied TDs, mediums, and heavies all while being barraged by dual priests to minor effect is what inspired me to make this thread.

The sad thing is it was such a fun back and forth match up until that point. But even with a hugely varied allied force with just about every type of unit you could see from the allies, we were all powerless in the face of the Jagdtiger.

don't want this to become all about 4v4 though. It's still be really annoying when set up in the center of a 2v2 match as well.

I don't want to yell L2P here, but the JT/ele is anything but uncounterable in 2's or 4's.

There's a reason 90% of OKW players get a jagdpanzer over a JT. Mostly because allies can get about 3-4 tanks for the same price as single JT. It's a sitting duck to m10/T-34 swarms and mark target.

They lost access to focused sight. Thats a pretty significant nerf.

Sexton itself isnt a counter to anything given its pitiful performance, somehow, compared to the priest.

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Most of the reliable counters are going to be British, and when it comes to 4v4, you are simply going to need at least one British teammate to take out heavy armor. Its practically why Relic designed them the way they are.

Yes try Brits in team games,you can see how powerful it is in late game. Though not sure sexon is useful.
And for JT and ele,already they are limited to only one, I don't see any upcoming nerf is needed.

OP, even with the price change they are still expensive as hell. and elephant received a slight nerf with focus sight removed. Assuming you play 3v3 and 4v4, you should have at least one teammate go isu152..

Well that's great for the brits, but what about USf and soviets, seems like from all these if they don't choose a doctrine with mark target or P-47s they are screwed. And since when is a faction needing a certain doctrine to counter a unit been okay from a balance standpoint.

The King Tiger is expensive too. But there is clear nondoctrinal counters in each faction with TDs that can kite it. None of the thing you guys have mentioned seem to fit that.

Hull down Elephant and Pz4 in the middle of minsk pocket. Laught at any armor.

No

Allies should not be able to counter axis units because krupp steel

Honestly if you take away the Jagdtiger and Elefant Axis will have nothing left to counter multiple churchills rolling their shit

The stun plus it's manouvrability is mostly of the time it's deathsentence. It will probably be fine. If it's not then there shoulr be eome tweaking. Time will tell