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Panzer 4 Command Tank is Overperforming

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wakeupta
15 Sep 2015, 00:14 AM
#21
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Posts: 27

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 00:01 AMTalore
I'm a fan of this approach + limiting it to tier 3 as others have suggested. I mean, I think all call-ins should be tied to buildings, or at least all tanks, but yeah. Oh please. You weren't watching momo's stream the other day. (He won, btw.)


Literal nobody* used it, then relic changed aura to be a radius instead of depending on map zones, nothing else.

Since release, which is 2 years aura wasn't op.

So hard:

Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none.
"You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."
2500+ hours played, pvp only.
War spoils system intentionally sucks since: More than 1 years
And you support this by Buying more Relic/SEGA games :foreveralone:
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Mr. Someguy
15 Sep 2015, 00:20 AM
#22
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 23:14 PMDeC
It beats an M4c 1on1 so yeah a nerf is in order.


I'm sorry, I couldn't read past this. Command P4 beats an M4C? You fucking what?

The Command P4 does 80 damage and has a maximum 55 Penetration, this is the gun of a Light Tank. That gun is inferior to the M5 Stuart's 37mm. The M4C has a low of 120 Penetration and does 160 damage. These are not even close to comparable stats, let alone anywhere near superior.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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momo4sho
15 Sep 2015, 00:20 AM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 23:59 PMWhoa



:clap:

Based on this, i guess you don't even know the tank and the aura stats.

Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none.


The tank has the same health, same armor, and rear armor than a regular pz4. I already conceded that it doesn't have the same lethality as a regular panzer 4. ( which implies damage and pen).

To say that a 20% hp boost to all units in its aura is not enormous is deluded, I suggest you not be so condescending in your future posts.

Provide a counter argument to my point instead of baseless accusations. Please and Thank you!
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Neffarion
15 Sep 2015, 00:30 AM
#24
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Posts: 461 | Subs: 1

I don't think its OP, it has almost the same pen as a t70 and low damage, you only use it to defend against tanks or attack infantry.
Otherwise its just there for the buff to the units
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DeC
15 Sep 2015, 00:35 AM
#25
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Posts: 102

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 00:20 AMMr. Someguy


I'm sorry, I couldn't read past this. Command P4 beats an M4C? You fucking what?

I was being sarcastic bro as it is the first ever 'CMD PIV OP' thread I've ever seen. While the sneaky M4C being a free game changing call in is almost completely ignored by everyone.
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Robbie_Rotten
15 Sep 2015, 01:00 AM
#26
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Posts: 412

Guys why even bring the M4C into this thread. They are two entirely different units, and I suspect the people in here complaining about it here are people who have been beaten by dfsCRO.

We all know why it wasn't moved into T4 like the E8 was....it was never being used. Now it is, maybe it should be, but thats a different thread.

As to OP, the patch notes are addressing a lot of this. Very timely!
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ClassyDavid
15 Sep 2015, 01:00 AM
#27
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Posts: 424 | Subs: 2

It has gotten rather overbuffed with the recent changes of always providing a massive durability buff to already tough and lethal infantry. This resulted in the Command Tank going from a mainly defensive one to a unit that can support attacks as well. Always providing buffs makes it rather a no brainer choice considering you can skip T3 with it and rely on Paks or hard as nails Grenadiers. Moving it to T3 would force a choice between a supporting unit or a more versatile, aggressive tank. At least tweak it were it only gives the buff to surrounding units, not itself, and in territory.
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Hon3ynuts
15 Sep 2015, 01:22 AM
#28
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Posts: 818

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 23:36 PMtightrope
I find it too durable. Maybe they should change it so the buff it gives doesn't apply to itself?


If anything is required i would prefer this change. though i think it hasn't been proved OP yet, its pretty clearly not as good as a regular P4 aside from this buff. I think people pretty much use it only b/c they don't have to tech not b/c its like the most OP thing in the game. I don't think you would see it much if at all if there were tech costs for it.
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Vuther
15 Sep 2015, 01:47 AM
#29
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 23:34 PMXucphra
I don't have an opinion on the topic (forgive me), but I felt compelled to compliment your presentation. Your post is very well written and I've taken a genuine interest in the issue.

That's like, the perfect avatar for such a post.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 01:00 AMClassyDavid
It has gotten rather overbuffed with the recent changes of always providing a massive durability buff to already tough and lethal infantry. This resulted in the Command Tank going from a mainly defensive one to a unit that can support attacks as well. Always providing buffs makes it rather a no brainer choice considering you can skip T3 with it and rely on Paks or hard as nails Grenadiers. Moving it to T3 would force a choice between a supporting unit or a more versatile, aggressive tank. At least tweak it were it only gives the buff to surrounding units, not itself, and in territory.

Wait, the aura affects itself now?

Yeah, I'd say that's a definitely tad goofy on principle.
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momo4sho
15 Sep 2015, 01:49 AM
#30
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jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 23:34 PMXucphra
I don't have an opinion on the topic (forgive me), but I felt compelled to compliment your presentation. Your post is very well written and I've taken a genuine interest in the issue.


Thank you, much appreciated !

:sibHeart:
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rush
15 Sep 2015, 05:27 AM
#31
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Posts: 341

command p4 is fine , combined with the pumas from mobile defense it becomes a pain in the ass.
it's veterancy requirements are really high which makes it a bit more balanced .
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Mr. Someguy
15 Sep 2015, 05:48 AM
#32
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Posts: 4928

They could reduce the health to 512, this will completely offset the 20% damage reduction as every hit will deal 128 damage, bringing the TTK back to normal levels. Could also have less armour, about 130, because the F1 was not as armoured as the later models.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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vietnam_giap13
15 Sep 2015, 06:11 AM
#33
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Posts: 197

Panzer 4 command is really op to me. I think pz4 command must require Tier 3 teching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vtuL6E59II&feature=share

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Gbpirate
15 Sep 2015, 06:52 AM
#34
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I think that Blitzkrieg Doctrine is incredibly powerful late game for 1v1 as Ostheer.

Panzer Tactician, command P4, Stuka CAS; perfect.

the Command P4 really helps armor survive (two panthers can comfortably take on an IS2, even with ZiS support).

I think that, if Relic wanted to maintain the command P4's role as a defensive unit, the aura buff could apply only when in friendly territory (or neutral territory, too).

Perhaps giving the buff a smaller damage decrease while giving units a slightly lower received accuracy, the unit could balance itself out? I think that would be more interesting than what effectively amounts to a health buff.


Test out my competitive 2v2 map Black Forest!
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JohnnyB
15 Sep 2015, 07:12 AM
#35
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The command tank is what wehrmacht needs to resist lategame these days when Tiger < churchill.
If something needs to be changed, introduce a teching requirement, but no other change.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
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Kozokus
15 Sep 2015, 07:39 AM
#36
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Posts: 301

The unit seems fair. Never had problem with or against it. Basically you trade the AT capacy of a normal P4 for a nice aura which is only useful if it is surrounded with other units (of course it is!). Same weaknesses, Die to a ZIS, eat ATgrenades, is UNIQUE (which is a very nice and well thought limitation). You have to rely on something else for medium anti tank unlike a normal P4. If something need to be changed (and i do not think so, i have better candidate for change), i think the patch takes the good direction when it slightly weaken the aura.
...For conflict is the great teacher,
and pain... the perfect educator...
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Katitof
15 Sep 2015, 07:43 AM
#37
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Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 07:12 AMJohnnyB
The command tank is what wehrmacht needs to resist lategame these days when Tiger < churchill.


You might want to reread patch notes for 17th then.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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JohnnyB
15 Sep 2015, 09:02 AM
#38
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 07:43 AMKatitof


You might want to reread patch notes for 17th then.


Red it, it's a good start, but I was talking about the actual situation.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
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Katitof
15 Sep 2015, 09:03 AM
#39
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Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 09:02 AMJohnnyB


Red it, it's a good start, but I was talking about the actual situation.

Which is relevant how with patch notes there and patch around the corner?
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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RiCE
15 Sep 2015, 09:07 AM
#40
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Posts: 284

Last time ive checked the Command Panzer4 had around 50 penetration and 80 damage. So far the only change i remember is its territory HP buff got changed to an Aura version. I dont remember any damage or penetration buff. Have i missed something? I doubt it could go toe-to-toe against any medium tank...

Also, as far as i know, the command tanks buff aura never effects the tanks itself.
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