Pak40 to T1 - it's needed.

All we see now in game after game is the repeating cycle that Axis players are consistently REACTING to the allied playstyle. Their units have always come out earlier that force the Axis players off the map. WASP, AA HT's, early T70, early Su76, flamer scout cars, early Crusier MKII, early 70mm scout car, etc. Even late game Axis armor is a day late and a dollar short now especially vs. Brit. The Axis counters to the early Allied play are quickly obsolete or already easily countered themselves.

OKW can get a racketten right away in anticipation of these actics, but OH has to rely on soft counter or no counter Faust. The units that Racketten/Pak40 are meant to counter have an easy time of avoiding and then killing the AT, because the units the AT are trying to kill easily negate or destroy their support. Playing constant CATCH-UP REACTION is destroying Axis play and it isn't L2P - we don't have the tools we need early enough to put up a good fight. Moving the MG42 to T0 was a good step, but finish it with moving the Pak40 in its place at T1.

It's odd that in history the Allies were off guard and reacting to Blitzkrieg and on an initial defensive, but from the start in this game, it's the opposite. The Allies have the choices that effect the rest of the game and the mobility advantage in most areas of the game.

YES this is a game and history isn't always the desire of gaming, but it brings up a valid point. At what point do the Allies need to be reacting to their opponent's gameplay as much as Axis has to react to theirs? It appears to be pretty one sided at the moment.

And with the way the QF 6 lber is working for its price, a reduction around 290-300 is warranted for the Pak 40 as well, IMHO. It's pretty high priced comparatively and it's vet1 ability needs to allow for a higher price but not its current level.

inb4 flame wars

Ostheer doesn't need an at gun from minute 1 on to counter something like the bren or the m3, you got a faust isn't that enough for you? In that case learn to use it..... You get to t2 fast enough to counter stronger light vehicles like the aa halftrack.. and if you don't, gg for you vs us and sovs... and "play on for another 10 minutes until you get one" vs brits.

To sum it up.. it's ok and not needed if you don't want to mess up balance, or do the allies have a zis in t1 because a 222 could arrive?

Ost don't need a t0 AT gun when they are the only faction that has a t1 snare without the need to upgrade, research or get vet.

Grens give ost enough stopgap till paks, it's fine how it is.

It's odd that in history the Allies were off guard and reacting to Blitzkrieg and on an initial defensive, but from the start in this game, it's the opposite. The Allies have the choices that effect the rest of the game and the mobility advantage in most areas of the game.

In history the allies have the mobile advantage at the end/mid of 1942 in africa (russian later)
Or just thing about 1943-1945 when the US and British started to storm Europe...

history is not he best argument for a RTS


pak to t1 = us forces is even more fun
= vs soviet t1 is....

Paging Dr. Cruzz. Dr. Cruzz to the allies OP thread.

actually, each faction needs light AT gun in HQ-T1 structure

Pak at t2 is great, faust do the job

Ostheer doesn't need an at gun from minute 1 on to counter something like the bren or the m3, you got a faust isn't that enough for you? In that case learn to use it..... You get to t2 fast enough to counter stronger light vehicles like the aa halftrack.. and if you don't, gg for you vs us and sovs... and "play on for another 10 minutes until you get one" vs brits.

To sum it up.. it's ok and not needed if you don't want to mess up balance, or do the allies have a zis in t1 because a 222 could arrive?

There is usually a zis on the field long before a 222 can arrive and btw, usually is because they know it counters the 222 specifically that is neede to REACT to their playstyle. Invalid point.

Getting a faust off on a AAHT or WASP is neigh impossible.

You're helping prove my point. the zis is available from the first building they can build. Why should it be so different for OH?

No

Not needed at all, OH already has plenty of tools to deal with early vehicle play. You shouldn't need a hard counter for everything that could possibly get thrown at you at all points in the game, there should be windows of opportunities for light vehicles you know. Why would you even want to spend the manpower on a Pak that early anyway when cheaper options are available? You'd basically just be giving up map presence for the hope of catching a light vehicle off-position enough to get 2 shots off...

Paging Dr. Cruzz. Dr. Cruzz to the allies OP thread.

Please point to me where I called Allies OP in my thread?

Never said it, was making the point that at the moment it appears all Axis have is a Reactionary playstyle aand we can't be proactive, knowing what's coming.

All we see now in game after game is the repeating cycle that Axis players are consistently REACTING to the allied playstyle.

Nothing wrong with that. Axis have always been designed that way.

Not needed at all, OH already has plenty of tools to deal with early vehicle play. You shouldn't need a hard counter for everything that could possibly get thrown at you at all points in the game, there should be windows of opportunities for light vehicles you know. Why would you even want to spend the manpower on a Pak that early anyway when cheaper options are available? You'd basically just be giving up map presence for the hope of catching a light vehicle off-position enough to get 2 shots off...

Don't you think I, the player, should be given the opportunity to make that choice AS a PAYSTYLE that I can't do now because of the upgrade and high cost? When by what I see in the games i watch and play it, there are many times I wish I had that choice. In 2v2s where one is OKW and the other OH, an early Racketten makes a big difference. And how may times has the 3rd or 4th unit on the field of a Russian player been a zis gun? It's ok for russians but not OH?? hmmmmm.

To counter the Universal Carrier, 70mm scout car, t70, M20, Stuart, just get double 222s. They can kill all of them either alone or together. Get a pak 40 after that.

Also double 222 works well to harras and wipe squads on retreat

If pak 40 goes to T1, sniper should go to t2. A cost reduction would be welcome, it is very pricey, would require the TWP to be a little more expensive then.

No thanks.

Don't you think I, the player, should be given the opportunity to make that choice AS a PAYSTYLE that I can't do now because of the upgrade and high cost? When by what I see in the games i watch and play it, there are many times I wish I had that choice. In 2v2s where one is OKW and the other OH, an early Racketten makes a big difference. And how may times has the 3rd or 4th unit on the field of a Russian player been a zis gun? It's ok for russians but not OH?? hmmmmm.

Crappy conscripts walk around with crappy rifles and then got mowed down by LMG grens. Not all factions can be identical.

There is usually a zis on the field long before a 222 can arrive and btw, usually is because they know it counters the 222 specifically that is neede to REACT to their playstyle. Invalid point.

Getting a faust off on a AAHT or WASP is neigh impossible.

You're helping prove my point. the zis is available from the first building they can build. Why should it be so different for OH?

1.
Ok... well, you got a faust without teching, which is more than enough to deal with vehicles like the m3, which can't even be compared to the 222, because it's much weaker.

2.
As much as getting an at nade on a 222 or a puma.

3.
It's not the same faction, that's it and soviets aren't getting t2 at the start all the time.

Don't you think I, the player, should be given the opportunity to make that choice AS a PAYSTYLE that I can't do now because of the upgrade and high cost? When by what I see in the games i watch and play it, there are many times I wish I had that choice. In 2v2s where one is OKW and the other OH, an early Racketten makes a big difference. And how may times has the 3rd or 4th unit on the field of a Russian player been a zis gun? It's ok for russians but not OH?? hmmmmm.

Not at all. All factions are designed differently and the arguments that other factions have it so OH should as well is just lazy. Again, windows of opportunity for light vehicle play are intended and healthy design choices, you should not have a hard counter to everything at all points in the game. It's not like you have 0 counter-play options.

Nah no way, pak is currently in a pretty good spot as is ost in general.

I will admit wasp can be a problem especially as it can sometimes survive two fausts and with good micro can wipe most squads that do try to faust it but it's getting a nerf anyway.

Quad can be beyond annoying sometimes, but I feel that is more of a problem of the quad itself rather than pak being T2.