Soviet Ability Changes

Ello gents, while there are many abilities in this game that are useful, some are rather dubious worth. Mainly on the Soviet side but nevertheless Relic has stated they are looking into veteran abilities overall but knowing them we simply don't know when or what they'll bring. So I decided to just cobble up this list of abilities (Mainly Veterancy ones but also other that are purchased or gained through other means.) Hopefully we can figure out a way for these abilities into a more useful or balanced state. Of course this can expand/change as people add on and better (more agreed on) suggestions are suggested! (The TL;DR will contain the shorten changes at the bottom, the list below will go in more depth of way.)

Soviets: Earlier in this game Soviets have had some of the best and most infuriating forms of abilities like precision strikes. While Soviets do still have useful abilities many are rather of dubious worth nowadays.

Molotov: Being 125 MP and 25 Fuel to purchase while also having one of (if not THE) longest throwing animations one would expect a good grenade. Sadly this is not the case. Doing rather low amount of damage thanks to the flame changes in July, Molotov's are useless outside of building clearing or denying cover. There are multiple cases of enemy troops standing in the flames for a good five seconds and receiving minimal damage.

Suggestion(s); On the initial impact those affected will "catch" fire doing 20 or greater HP damage over a few seconds. Or make it were it'll will do a flat damage on impact. (If you get caught by a Molotov you should be punished appropriately.) OR/AND Reduce speed of those caught in flames either through initial impact or walking through the flames. (This will make it harder for Axis troops to disengage allowing Soviet units to stay close and deal damage.)

DShK 12.7 HMG Armored Piercing Rounds: This is Relic logic showing again. A more expensive and bigger caliber round HMG doing less damage and penetration to a cheaper, smaller caliber, and earlier HMG. The MG42 Incendiary Rounds to be precise. I have used these constantly to figure out how effect the AP rounds but yet to find them useful outside of tickling half tracks, puma's, and scout cars. At least it can take out Kubel quickly! (To understand how awful the ability is I had spotted a Flak Half track approaching one of the buildings in Semoski so I activated it and pointed it in the correct direction and waited. Once the Flak Half track came into range it set up, fired at the building for a good 10 seconds or so before pulling back. My DShK was firing non stop at it and only took out half it HP in that time. A MG42 with incendiary rounds will take out a USF AA Half track in two or three bursts within 4 or 5 seconds...)

Suggestion; Just copy and paste the MG42 incendiary rounds to AP rounds and call it a diddly day. This would make the DShK extremely threatening light vehicles rather than tickling the enemy jibbles.

Tracking (ZiS AT Gun, SU-76, SU-85, and ISU-152): Not sure why give anti-tank units a ability to track infantry units considering their job to destroy tanks. I can see this being relatively useful as it does allow you to be aware of those pesky fausts and panzerschrecks but it is still limited. A low priority however as it ain't completely limited.

Suggestion; Veteran crews can detect specific armoured noises allowing them to spot enemy tanks within 100+ radius on the mini-map. It ain't a passive to be clear. Basically this allows anti-tank troops and tanks prepare in enemy in enemy attacks. This is rather huge as you can see where the enemy is planning to come from and prepare the appropriate response. This extends to helping out both SU variants immensely as they can avoid being flanked and destroyed by blitzing German tanks.

Secure Mode (Only for both T-34s variants, KV-1, KV-2, KV-8, IS-2, and M4C Sherman); Being one of those weird abilities on tanks besides the T-70 which is rather great on. Again these are one of those that can and are useful but limited especially compared to OST Blitz for their medium and heavy tanks.

Suggestion(s) Part 1 (For T-34s variants and M4C Sherman); Simple really. Replace Secure Mode with Radio Net. This greatly benefits T-34-76s as they become much more effective in numbers as they are cheap in fuel to buy and Veterancy already increases their rate of fire. (This really extends to all Soviet mediums as that they already have good rate of fire with veterancy.) Basically winning through fire power and sheer volume of shots. This would make up for the low penetration of T-34-76s mainly. For the other medium tanks (T-34-85 and M4C Sherman) this would make packs of them extremely potent and dangerous to even Panthers or King Tigers frontally. The increase of mobility will also boast them significantly as well allowing more flanks and hit & run tactics to be employed. Infantry and other medium tanks (or any for that matter) of Axis will be scared witless if facing two. This ain't imbalanced as it seems due to the fact Axis tanks generally have better veterancy bonuses, AT guns, and abilities. (TWP, Blitz, Smoke, etc.) Of course Axis do have better handheld anti-tank weaponry. Lastly is that they won't stand taking damage well either considering they are still low armour-medium tanks.

Part 2! (For the Heavies; IS-2, KV-1, KV-2, and KV-8)
In all honestly I am not quite sure what do in the case of these heavy tanks as secure mode is not half bad due to heavy armour and high hp. One thing I can think of is with Veterancy 1 is reducing the damage taken to take 1 extra shot for all heavies. IS-2 is uncertain but for KV-1, KV-2, and KV-8 it would be a great buff for tanking those hits and becoming sponges for the squishier Soviet tanks and infantry. Besides that I don't know.

TL;DR
Molotov's: Deal damage over time on initial impact for 20+ hp over around five seconds or so. This could be replaced of simply doing a flat damage on impact. OR/AND slow down units affected by the flames for a few seconds.

DShK AP Rounds: Simply cope and paste MG42 Incendiary Rounds.

Tracking: Change into detecting enemy tanks to better prepare for enemy vehicle threats.

Secure Mode: Keep on T-70 due to being a light tank/ harasser.

Replace with Radio Net for all Soviet medium tanks meaning packs of them or even two will be threatening to most tanks on the field due to rate of fire and mobility.

For heavy tanks replace with being able to tank (pun intended!) one more shot. Extends all KV variants to become more effective as damage sponges as well IS-2. Might be too good for IS-2 but considering Axis high penetration weapons already...


In Conclusion: Hope you gents enjoyed the read and hopefully agreed with these changes! I do encourage for those to throw in their own idea as it could be the best suggestion in the world. Feel free to also mock changes that you feel are completely crazy!

Note: I was going to make it include OST changes but it would simply make this page even longer so I decided to split it up into two parts. One for Soviet and one for OST.

I like Molos slowing units down. Retreat paths would lead to more wipes, especially at building entrances and choke points.

Tracking, I agree.

Secure point, I disagree. Vehicles taking territory ought to be a commander specific thing.

Soviet radio nets wouldn't make much sense with regards to realism because Soviet tankers were not at all know for their coordination in real life. I understand the need for T34s to scale exponentially like Shermans; to accomplish this, I think that an ability similar to Zeal would make sense; losses taken around tanks inspire them to fight harder.

molotovs are shit. i think they just need a straight up damage increase. i don't really see an issue with moltovs being "better" (more potential damage with the trade off that it's DoT instead of spike) then hand grenades but they really, really need a damage increase and you can worry about bonuses after that.

the problem with the DShK rounds, at least compared to the MG42, is that they don't add any extra damage. I'm not sure they need a damage increase but they should get something else or incendiary rounds should be toned down.

apparently tracking used to give an actual sight bonus (never saw it, didn't play much soviet for a long time) and was justifiably considered OP. i still hate the idea of AT weapons self spotting. as far as doing something with the vet slot, i think your idea has merit as long as it's a pretty cheap (20-30 mun) ability. a suggestion off the top of my head would be a "rapid fire" ability that would allow the zis to quickly fire a second shot. probably too powerful against light vehicles though.

not really fond of your radio net suggestion for two reasons. one, the above mentioned by beefsurge of historical accuracy (personal preference, relic has already shown that they're not really concerned out it, despite their protests otherwise). two, it's already on USF and it's not going to fit well with soviet units. having radionet require vet means that you not only have to build a lot of mediums but you also have to vet them up and keep them alive. the end result i see is that it turns into a snowball mechanic and doesn't actually help anyone.

as far as heavies go, i also don't see any obvious options. the only thing that comes to mind (this could affect the t70 as well) would be to change secure mode to be similar to breakthrough in encirclement and make it rapidly decap a point but not cap it. this way the heavies can decap heavily contested points and the t70 can very strongly harass. the current secure mode takes quite a while which leaves the t70 vulnerable and is generally a waste of a heavy tank's time.

i certainly agree that vet abilities in general, and the soviets' in particular, need looking at though and i can see that you've spent a fair bit of time typing this up, which is appreciated.

My opinion on the molotovs woulds be to make the DoT tick faster but have the same duration and maybe boost the initial explosion damage.

Russian TDs/assault gun/ATG Tracking seems decent enough. Probably keep it cheap and maybe detect up to 60 range or 70 similar to the German scout car/half-track infantry detection.

Soviet heavy tanks would likely not be universal given how different each one is and given how the WFA are, no reason to not spice things up.

-KV-8 could get a flame wall like ability like the CnC dragon tank that increases range, AOE and puts down a wall of fire across an area that would be ideal for forcing blobs to disperse. Given that the Centaur has a similar strafing ability with its cannons, shown in the video, I don't see that being difficult to implement. Cost maybe 30-45 munitions per use.

-IS-2 could maybe get an aura that improves troops around it within a short distance. It is ideal for rolling up with the troops with that 40 range at vet 0-1 and smashing anything apart. Radius would be small to force the IS-2 to be on the front if it wants to support troops with that sort of aura.

-KV-1 gets a durability increase to emphasize its role as a damage sponge. Maybe have a toggle which hulls it down and possibly give it increased fire rate. The bunker tank if you will.

-KV-2, I have no clue. Thing barely sees action as it is.

Medium tanks could have radio net, but rename it to something else. Though I would just have the T-34/76 have it considering it seems to be the only medium tank cheap enough to work in packs.(just needs a slight MP and pop reduction)

Molotovs should do more damage over time but less crits on explosion.
I had many times where a molotov killed 1 or 2 members of my MG on the explosion but after that the MG could pack up and simply move away while being inside the flames for many seconds.

I kind of understand the rationale behind molotov animation: the 10 second area denial is quite powerful, so it's meant for balance. Grenades for their part have fast animation, but no lingering effects. Smoke grenades have relatively low range, and don't inflict damage. For the Blendkorper, the range is also rather low and also a veterancy unlock.

In regards to Tracking I agree, I think for Soviets, it should instead be something like "Fire HE Shell" to give them added versatility through vet1 unlock. The same can be done for medium tanks; secure mode should however be within the realm of light vehicles, including T-70, so that they have supporting roles that are more crucial once you start facing Panthers. The idea behind Secure Mode is a good one, problem is that every Soviet vehicle T3 and higher has it.
Ramming should instead be similar to CoH1's Tread Breaker, so that instead of sacrificing your T-34, you instead have an alternate Critical hitting ability through your T4 unit. It could replace both Ramming Speed and Secure mode and be vet1 unlock, same as Riflemen's AT rifle grenade. It could also instead just grant temporary immobilize/ slowdown on the target vehicle.

For DshK HMG, I think a suitable vet1 ability is that it's AP rounds ignore cover, similar to how infrared/ flamethrower units work. Would be a bit of an abstract reflection of the 12.7mm rounds smashing through cover. This way, you have a unit that can still damage and suppress units in heavy cover as if they were in negative cover. This turns the DshK into a very powerful support unit...if you get it to vet1 and have the munitions and backup for it.

I'm actually thinking some of the CoH1 abilities might benefit some units in this game like the Soviet heavy tanks: IS-2/ KV-1 for example can have Tank Shock, which increases movement speed and suppresses nearby infantry. Like Ramming Speed, it can have a temporary Engine Overheat when it's finished so that it fulfills the ramming role as well as a Blitz clone. Also, seeing as Soviets is more offensive oriented than Ostheer, these two heavy tanks should have heavy crush; tank traps can still block them, but the Tank Shock could be used to break them down. This makes the IS-2/ KV-1 ideal spearhead units.
Another idea worth giving for these heavy tanks is Mine Plows which grant them good chance of reducing damage from mines and thus reducing Critical hit tendency.

Beefsurge's "Tank Zeal" idea is also good; it encourages combined arms as well as providing one of the weakest medium tanks in the game a means to temporarily be more resilient in combat. I think it should only be for M4C Sherman though.
Another idea for T-34 is the Site Main Gun from CoH1's Marder; but instead of being immobilized and be a tank destroyer, this ability makes the T-34 fire slower but with greater accuracy, slightly farther, but also moves slower. As a munitions-cost timed ability, it makes it an excellent infantry support vehicle while also being effective against any tanks it comes across, though the reduced movement means it's susceptible to being flanked, so it still encourages combined arms or at least some form of support. This would give non-doc Soviet a T4 tank that allows them to move at the pace of infantry and provide support for them by attacking bunkers and machine guns more effectively. As vet1 unlock replacing Secure Mode, it means you need to use the T-34 for a bit before you can use this ability.
That or give all these vehicles armour upgrade at vet1, like having sandbags and treads bolted onto the hull. No Soviet vehicle has armour bonus at veterancy.

Hey, i made similar thread months ago. (Example: http://www.coh2.org/topic/32191/vet-abilities--penals--zeal links to the other threads)


Molotov: increase DoT or debuff the unit caught inside a molotov

DShK AP Rounds:
If my dig in files is correct, MG42 AP rounds gets 2x damage (from 4 to 8), 0.5 reload and +9 penetration across the board (11.2/10.8/10.4).
Dshk get simple a 3x penetration. Damage is 10 but pen is (4.5/3.0/1.5 x3) so 13.5/9/4.5
Increasing penetration at long range would "fix it". If you want to mimic it, i guess a 50% increase RoF (still slower than MG42) would almost make it equal (accounting for the 2damage difference).

Tracking: i'll prefer a rollback on the nerf (we have Take aim! which is basically the same principle but better). With your proposed change, you'll want something similar to Armor vehicle detection. Just make it damn cheap.

Personal options

Su 85 - Ambush attack: Cammo but stucks* the TD in position. Increase pen and damage by 50%. 45muni
*A different approach to the JPIV alien cloak capabilities.

KV1 - Vet2 change: replace actual vet2 (+35% weapon rotation speed, -30% reload) with Panthers vet2 (+10% armour +20% health, +40% weapon rotation speed)

KV2 - Bunker busting: Brummbar vet ability

KV8 - Saturation fire: for some brief moment, the main gun fires like Croc flamer. Dealing and leaving DoT on a zone.

IS2 - Inspire: infantry around the IS2 get a RA and accuracy buff. IS2 moves and shoots slower.

T34s - Ram rework:
-Remove the tiny chance to generate main gun destroy on the target tank
-Remove the chance to generate immobilize on target tank
-Stun on both tanks remain the same
-T34 now gets engine damage and main gun destroy
or
-T34 now get heavy engine damage and the possibility of the following crits: main gun destroy, immobilize or main gun "stuck" (aim shot crit)

Hey, i made similar thread months ago. (Example: http://www.coh2.org/topic/32191/vet-abilities--penals--zeal links to the other threads)


Molotov: increase DoT or debuff the unit caught inside a molotov

DShK AP Rounds:
If my dig in files is correct, MG42 AP rounds gets 2x damage (from 4 to 8), 0.5 reload and +9 penetration across the board (11.2/10.8/10.4).
Dshk get simple a 3x penetration. Damage is 10 but pen is (4.5/3.0/1.5 x3) so 13.5/9/4.5
Increasing penetration at long range would "fix it". If you want to mimic it, i guess a 50% increase RoF (still slower than MG42) would almost make it equal (accounting for the 2damage difference).

Tracking: i'll prefer a rollback on the nerf (we have Take aim! which is basically the same principle but better). With your proposed change, you'll want something similar to Armor vehicle detection. Just make it damn cheap.

Personal options

Su 85 - Ambush attack: Cammo but stucks* the TD in position. Increase pen and damage by 50%. 45muni
*A different approach to the JPIV alien cloak capabilities.

KV1 - Vet2 change: replace actual vet2 (+35% weapon rotation speed, -30% reload) with Panthers vet2 (+10% armour +20% health, +40% weapon rotation speed)

KV2 - Bunker busting: Brummbar vet ability

KV8 - Saturation fire: for some brief moment, the main gun fires like Croc flamer. Dealing and leaving DoT on a zone.

IS2 - Inspire: infantry around the IS2 get a RA and accuracy buff. IS2 moves and shoots slower.

T34s - Ram rework:
-Remove the tiny chance to generate main gun destroy on the target tank
-Remove the chance to generate immobilize on target tank
-Stun on both tanks remain the same
-T34 now gets engine damage and main gun destroy
or
-T34 now get heavy engine damage and the possibility of the following crits: main gun destroy, immobilize or main gun "stuck" (aim shot crit)

+1, I like these changes.

Kv-2 - make it similar to Sturmitger and Churchill A.V.R.E., one manual shot, but very powerful, with long reloading time.

I kind of understand the rationale behind molotov animation: the 10 second area denial is quite powerful, so it's meant for balance. Grenades for their part have fast animation, but no lingering effects.

spike damage is WAY more powerful then dot.

Hey, i made similar thread months ago. (Example: http://www.coh2.org/topic/32191/vet-abilities--penals--zeal links to the other threads)


Molotov: increase DoT or debuff the unit caught inside a molotov

DShK AP Rounds:
If my dig in files is correct, MG42 AP rounds gets 2x damage (from 4 to 8), 0.5 reload and +9 penetration across the board (11.2/10.8/10.4).
Dshk get simple a 3x penetration. Damage is 10 but pen is (4.5/3.0/1.5 x3) so 13.5/9/4.5
Increasing penetration at long range would "fix it". If you want to mimic it, i guess a 50% increase RoF (still slower than MG42) would almost make it equal (accounting for the 2damage difference).

Tracking: i'll prefer a rollback on the nerf (we have Take aim! which is basically the same principle but better). With your proposed change, you'll want something similar to Armor vehicle detection. Just make it damn cheap.

Personal options

Su 85 - Ambush attack: Cammo but stucks* the TD in position. Increase pen and damage by 50%. 45muni
*A different approach to the JPIV alien cloak capabilities.

KV1 - Vet2 change: replace actual vet2 (+35% weapon rotation speed, -30% reload) with Panthers vet2 (+10% armour +20% health, +40% weapon rotation speed)

KV2 - Bunker busting: Brummbar vet ability

KV8 - Saturation fire: for some brief moment, the main gun fires like Croc flamer. Dealing and leaving DoT on a zone.

IS2 - Inspire: infantry around the IS2 get a RA and accuracy buff. IS2 moves and shoots slower.

T34s - Ram rework:
-Remove the tiny chance to generate main gun destroy on the target tank
-Remove the chance to generate immobilize on target tank
-Stun on both tanks remain the same
-T34 now gets engine damage and main gun destroy
or
-T34 now get heavy engine damage and the possibility of the following crits: main gun destroy, immobilize or main gun "stuck" (aim shot crit)

+1 like them all