CAS commander in team games

I want to discuss how powerful CAS commander is in team games and what counters exist for it. It's so powerful that I could argue that it needs a nerf because of the strength it provides and no allied equivalent or effective counters exist for their abilities. Before this commander used to be laughable but the changes have been too overwhelming and I believe it needs a downgrade. I hope that CAS doesn't remain unchanged before British Forces show up because keeping a commander (very) strong in preparation for a new faction doesn't really make sense for the players that play Allies until then.

First, lets take a look at the commander in question: http://s21.postimg.org/lh3h2arxx/2015_08_10_00001_Copy.png

- - -

The 5 abilities I will briefly explain.

- Stuka Recon
Standard recon plane. Can be shot down by AA, fairly weak because it gets shot down almost instantly most of the time.

- Redistribute Resources
Instantly convert 50 fuel to 120 munitions (previously 150). Short cooldown.

- Anti-infantry Strafe
A plane comes in to strafe enemy infantry. Pretty fast depending on which edge of the map you have it come in from. Minimal damage however it red suppresses units. Short cooldown.

- Anti-tank strafe (or as my friend K likes to call it "anti all" strafe)
Effective at killing tanks/everything. Depending on where the plane strafes (if its strafing behind a tank) its able to 1 shot a medium tank (Sherman, T34, SU85). If coming in from the front, expect to see a 40%-80% hp loss.
In K's words: The plane prefers Tank targets but will target infantry. Very effective at killing everything (tanks, infantry, team weapons).

- Stuka Bombing Strike
A bomb is dropped at target location. Delay is average, on par with artillery strikes however this plane cannot be shot down and has pinpoint accuracy.

- - -

The problem that I have with this commander is that its a very effective support commander in team games such as 3v3 and 4v4s. This commander has a global presence and is not hindered much. Other than lowered fuel for armour should the player choose to use their 2nd ability.

This commander has a near instantaneous band aid solution for every situation, by being able to direct where his air strike comes in. He can help every front, whichever front that needs help, he can do a call in to turn the favour to his team mates side. Almost always, in 4 man parties that I face against in team games, I'll always see a CAS commander. Why? Because its essential to have a one click, I-WIN button. Because when you're coordinated on team speak or other VOIP programs, its very easy to have the player playing CAS to assist you when you need it. As you can see, this creates much frustration to me and my friends because there is no CAS allied equivalent nor a effective counter.

The CAS commander also encourages blobbing and easy squad wipes which is something that the devs are supposed to be against. You may say that they're using combined arms with their airplanes and infantry but really the most of the work is done by CAS infantry. Why? Because CAS commanders usually forgo fuel-heavy tech in favour of more munitions to help their allies. As such, basic units such as grens that only cost MP are preferred as a jack of all trades unit. Shooting down the planes doesn't hinder the commander at all and its almost irrelevant if you shoot them down or not because they're not really part of his army and he has an infinite supply of planes. I don't believe that CAS commanders have a combined arms army, its an all infantry shrek blob.

As a side benefit to the increased munitions income, CAS commanders are able to spam rifle grenades because of their plentiful munitions which also have very little visual indication, very fast travel time and are very effective squad wipes but complaints about rifle grenades are for another time/thread.

Typical CAS gameplay would be to spam grens and get to rank 6 ASAP. When there, your grens should have MGs through your fuel-to-munis ability. And you can start pinning with your planes and squad wiping with MGs/rifle grenades.

As you can see, this is very easy, very effective and very boring game play.

- - -

Suggested Fixes:

I'll edit this as more suggestions come but here are my main problems with this commander.

The 2nd ability should cost MP & Fuel to convert to Munis and it shouldn't be instantaneous. Its too much speed compared to other abilities like fuel supply drop. Perhaps give it a 15-60 second delay before resources are received.

Alternately, make strafing runs cost MP because if the plane is shot down then you're losing MP.

* Increase the costs of both strafing runs but also add a "return bonus". The CAS commander gets a return of resources when his plane returns safely. If it's shot down then no resource return obviously. *
- Each plane should be precious and not something you can simply throw at the enemy because you have bullets.

Strafing runs when called from the enemies side should have time penalties for when it arrives. You're calling airplanes that should originate from your side (behind your base where your airfields should be). If they're to fly over to the enemies side to come in, they should at least have a longer delay as well as have a chance to be shot down before they reach the map. The latter is my personal thoughts on the matter.

Anti-tank runs should be firing anti-armour rounds and not high explosive. They should be less effective vs infantry and weapon teams.

Strafing runs shouldn't suppress or should unsuppress once it's shot down (more on this later).

CAS call-ins should have friendly fire. Specifically the Anti-infantry strafing run. I've had it and seen it called in multiple times while the CAS commander's troops or friendly troops were right on the enemy troops yet they weren't suppressed. Doesn't really make sense how a guy in an airplane going 200km/h can some how magically not target friendly troops right on top of the enemy.

- - -

Now lets discuss what counters exist to fight the CAS commander.

My personal favourite is the USF Captain. Who is able to do the "On me!" ability to unsuppress nearby squads instantly and provide them with an accuracy and damage bonus. The downside to this is it requires a captain, requires rank 1, requires the him to be nearby, requires you to be playing USF and groups all your units for a good ol' fashion 5 squad wipe rifle nade. I should mention that the Captain stays suppressed despite his army running around him like nothing. So as you can see, in most situations, you're gonna be suppressed.

Another one might suggest is to shoot down the plane with AA HTs. However the problem with that is the plane almost always shoots before it is shot down leaving infantry suppressed. What the CAS commander has paid for will always go through, there's no way to avoid the suppression but it won't last as long. So, you're gonna be suppressed.

Win early game. The problem with this is that CAS commander only needs 1 node to secure mid and late game. He only needs either 1 munitions node or 1 fuel node because he will exchange and power through mid-late game with his team.

These are the only counters I can think of at the moment.

I would like to hear what others think and what other's personal experience with this commander. What are some weaknesses? Imo, any weakness can be compensated by your allies and you can help each other ten-fold. No allies equivalent exists (yet).

- - -

I would like to share another post I wrote further in this thread. If you don't want to read all the comments, please read my second post.

Well this thread blew up over the past 24 hours.

I've read each and every reply to see both sides of the argument. Some things that people haven't addressed is the global presence of CAS commander in team games. Some of you have said its great in 1v1 but lack counters to heavy armour. In team games, the weakness is compensated by having their team mates to help them with that. CAS commander can pak wall pretty effectively too with excess MP.

I've also spoken with some friends that have over 1k hours of CoH2 and we've come to the agreement that CAS is very poorly designed. The reason being: While the commander is called Close Air Support, that doesn't mean you should cram all of the air support abilities possible into one. His abilities have way too much synergy to the point where its very overpowered. Its very versatile and has a global presence which most other commanders with global presences cannot compete with, especially allied counter parts (yes I'm looking at you partisan commander).

I'm glad that my MP cost to strafing runs and resource returns if the plane returns safely has caught on to some of you. I think its a fair balance to this commander because the benefits of buying AA against CAS commander is very minimal for the cost (only good for shooting down the recon but they will get recon effects anyway). We should see more of an investment return if we choose to buy AA. Currently AA half tracks can be ignored by the enemy team. It should have priority-to-destroy for the CAS player and his team mates because it makes sense right? If you're a close air support commander then AA should be your ultimate enemy/rival. You must shoot down the AA half track that is shooting down your men.

- - -

Also another side note: Allies, specifically USF, had air superiority when they were fighting in the Western front and Soviets had way more planes than Axis during latter part of the Eastern front. Why don't we have CAS commanders for Allies and Soviets?

call me crazy but i would be on board for a manpower and fuel cost for redistribute resources.

CAS isnt OP. Its game breaking.

I like the idea with planes costing MP and the MP being refunded on a safe exit. If the enemy has AA and you know the CAS strafe is going to succeed regardless, at least you might have to weigh not getting the 100 or 200 MP back.

The Stuka dive bomber ability should have a plane.

Keeping with the 'close' air support theme, remove the recon plane so it can't bomb far behind the lines.

CAS is pretty bad to be honest.

Better in 1v1 than team games.

Unless they perfectly time a stuka on your retreat point, everything is avoidable since the nerf. And they have less than no way to combat an ISU or IS2.

...

Better in 1v1 than team games.

...

i would love to hear the elaboration.

i would love to hear the elaboration.

In 1v1 the impact of mass LMGs as soon as you can click redistribute is much higher than in team games.

In 1v1 the ability to suppress most of one person's army is high. Suppressing most of one person's army in a 2v2/3v3/4v4 is less drastic overall.

In 1v1 the ISU is not viable on many maps, CAS has no way to ever counter an ISU.

In 1v1 PaK walling against one person's tanks on smaller maps (your PaKs can cover a larger percentage of said map) is easier. There are also less people to sweep your tellers/S-Mines.

Soviet play containing between 2-4 snipers is less viable 1v1. Snipers are strong against CAS.

The short version is that the abilities from CAS are able to impact a greater portion of the map/your opponent's army in 1v1 and the hard-counters to CAS are stronger in 2v2 than in 1v1.

Also 1v1 maps are a lot smaller, so the strafes come in much quicker.

also bearing in mind in a 1v1, one can get away without heavy armor, the prospect is a little more iffy in say a 4v4.

In 1v1 the impact of mass LMGs as soon as you can click redistribute is much higher than in team games.

In 1v1 the ability to suppress most of one person's army is high. Suppressing most of one person's army in a 2v2/3v3/4v4 is less drastic overall.

In 1v1 the ISU is not viable on many maps, CAS has no way to ever counter an ISU.

In 1v1 PaK walling against one person's tanks on smaller maps (your PaKs can cover a larger percentage of said map) is easier. There are also less people to sweep your tellers/S-Mines.

Soviet play containing between 2-4 snipers is less viable 1v1. Snipers are strong against CAS.

The short version is that the abilities from CAS are able to impact a greater portion of the map/your opponent's army in 1v1 and the hard-counters to CAS are stronger in 2v2 than in 1v1.

no comment on 1v1 as i do not play it but i play the rest of the game modes.

mass LMGs on 2-4 of a teams players is still really strong. it doesn't have as long a window of effectiveness as fuel income is higher but it doesn't necessarily need it if the axis player can grab most of the resources.

the pinning strafe from multiple players can lock down one area of the map for longer (not usually needed) or pin in different places. given how common it is for players to blob together in team games one strafe can sometimes hit 2 or 3 people's infantry. i really don't see it being in team games. the only "counter" i've seen to the pin strafe is for the enemy not to have enough units in the area to take advantage of the strafe, something that mostly comes down to poor play on the part of the CAS player.

issues with the ISU are lessened in team games as the other players can compensate (either by building ISU counters or by using multiple AT strafes).

you're right about pak walls, although some maps are designed with lots of choke points which end up making it easier. map design issue though.

not really sure how snipers fare against CAS as i haven't used them much recently. like paks they're pretty map dependent though.

i don't think there are "counters" to CAS, just areas it's not strong against, which is a big part of the problem with the doctrine. if AA actually prevent the planes from firing you could at least have a clearcut option to counter the doctrine but AA is useless against it and good micro and attention will only get you so far when maps are tight, pathing is bad, and you only have a couple of seconds to get out of a massive radius.

just to be clear, my point is that CAS is still very strong in teamgames. i'm not going to make judgements on a game mode i neither like nor play and i understand why you would find it more powerful in 1v1 but it is still a low micro, high impact doctrine regardless of game mode.

speaking from 3v3+ perspective,

Also 1v1 maps are a lot smaller, so the strafes come in much quicker.

In 1v1 the impact of mass LMGs as soon as you can click redistribute is much higher than in team games.

...

...

...

Soviet play containing between 2-4 snipers is less viable 1v1. Snipers are strong against CAS.

The short version is that the abilities from CAS are able to impact a greater portion of the map/your opponent's army in 1v1 and the hard-counters to CAS are stronger in 2v2 than in 1v1.

fair enough. but many 3v3+ maps, especially 4v4, battles are strongly encouraged to occur on the edges, so yeah.

...

1. In 1v1 the ability to suppress most of one person's army is high. Suppressing most of one person's army in a 2v2/3v3/4v4 is less drastic overall.

2. In 1v1 the ISU is not viable on many maps, CAS has no way to ever counter an ISU.

3. In 1v1 PaK walling against one person's tanks on smaller maps (your PaKs can cover a larger percentage of said map) is easier. There are also less people to sweep your tellers/S-Mines.
...

4. also bearing in mind in a 1v1, one can get away without heavy armor, the prospect is a little more iffy in say a 4v4.

1. As the game mode gets bigger, the number of areas for your army(ies) do not increase proportionally. as in more units have to settle with same amount of resting area so to speak. especially when going from 3v3 to 4v4 because there is only one 4v4 only map, which is Vielsam, which is horrendous beyond belief. which means as long as we assume that the blobness of the allies player in 1v1 is same as the allies team in 3v3+, the axis CAS user will reap more from the AI strafe in 3v3+.

2. one of your two/three teammate goes Ele or JT.

if that is not the case, deal with ISU the same way as allies deal with JT. without OP Stuka close air support loitering strafe or matched/superior AT platform, allies teams have been somehow dealing fairly well with JT by making risky plays. I am sure 30 muni recon run helps a lot in making plays.

3. pak/zis walling in 3v3+ should work even finer in 3v3+ since each player has less assigned sectors. i for one love doing it. although once walking stuka or katyusha comes out, it is hell.

4. maybe, but when it comes to armour, all you need is three stug with at least one vetted. it's laughable.

Stuka bombing strike is the problem with this doctrine, should have V1 Rocket instead.

CAS isnt OP. Its game breaking.

I wouldn't say that. Currently there are combos involving the new PIV command tank which I would dare to say that are at least as good as the offensive power of CAS.
So you are beating a dead horse here buddy, since latest patch people tend to use CAS less.

In 1v1 the impact of mass LMGs as soon as you can click redistribute is much higher than in team games.

In 1v1 the ability to suppress most of one person's army is high. Suppressing most of one person's army in a 2v2/3v3/4v4 is less drastic overall.

In 1v1 the ISU is not viable on many maps, CAS has no way to ever counter an ISU.

In 1v1 PaK walling against one person's tanks on smaller maps (your PaKs can cover a larger percentage of said map) is easier. There are also less people to sweep your tellers/S-Mines.

Soviet play containing between 2-4 snipers is less viable 1v1. Snipers are strong against CAS.

The short version is that the abilities from CAS are able to impact a greater portion of the map/your opponent's army in 1v1 and the hard-counters to CAS are stronger in 2v2 than in 1v1.

Exactly. After such a long time of CAS usage people still don't understand that not the planes are the most important CAS feature.

CAS is pretty bad to be honest.
And they have less than no way to combat an ISU or IS2.

Actually, I killed the ISU of a high level player with a single AT strafe once, shortly before CAS became widespread I think it was slightly damaged from AT guns, but not much. I hit it in the rear armour with the strafe.

Actually, I killed the ISU of a high level player with a single AT strafe once, shortly before CAS became widespread I think it was slightly damaged from AT guns, but not much. I hit it in the rear armour with the strafe.

Yup.

Mine (or stun shot) -> Crippled ISU -> AT strafe -> Bye bye ISU.

CAS isnt OP. Its game breaking.

Nope. CAS is totally fine. L2plane.

I'm glad to read ISU counter CAS doctrine! Oh wait USF doesn't have them!

The problem with CAS is also because the doctrine belong to Ostheer. And Ostheer is the faction that have every specialized units as Stock. CAS is simply the cheery over the cake, it doesn't enforce you to play a dedicated doctrice choice (early, mid, late game & inf / tank / arty). No, its a faction that simply give you another dimension for your army. Dimension uncounterable by Allied factions because the game hasn't been designed to counter efficiently Air superiority parameters.

It takes it source in vCoh where planes were given to USF, faction that were lacking of many stock specializations and force you do select one by picking a doctrine. To finish in Coh2 given to the only faction in game that have all stock specializations.

To make it more clear, Ostheer is only faction with a T4, and is the only faction that can replace its T4 by a doctrine as powerful and coming sooner.

Relic design and logic.

CAS is utterly useless now other than counter howitzers.

just make the conversion cost Manpower. it is that easy.