M26 Pershing/Calliope Debate

Alex telling us about how lovely USF AT is while asking for buffs to OKW units in the saaaaaame post. ...

go....away....

Anyway,USF lacks serious artillery. Which is why they need a calliope...to break up fortified late game fortifications and vetted axis inf... Adding a Pershing could help and allow jacksons and Sherman's to actually perform amazing maneuvers and finish off armor and take positions instead of taking all the hits and dying instantly like it is now.

many people seem to think that the pershing wont do much,people seem to forget why the pershing was created in the first place and why it was deployed.

Gun,unlike Tank destroyers Heavy tanks were not bad at dealing with infantry

the Calliope will provide very good indirect fire support to the USF and allow them to flank enemy tanks safely(by firing at Paks,shreack blobs)
something other units cant provide(think of it like a katyusha with a tank gun and armor/health)

1. By the time the Pershing arrived, Germany's fate was already sealed. The US Army was advancing so quickly they had to stop and wait for the supply lines to catch up. The Pershing did nothing to change the outcomne of the war. It just rolled in at the very end and claimed Victory when it hardly deserved a participation award.

2. The M36 and M26 had the same gun, and in real-life M36's had HE rounds that they fired at infantry or emplacements.

3. Sure, but I'd imagine it'd easily run up to 200 fuel cost. I would rather a Xylophone for 85 fuel.

1. By the time the Pershing arrived, Germany's fate was already sealed. The US Army was advancing so quickly they had to stop and wait for the supply lines to catch up. The Pershing did nothing to change the outcomne of the war. It just rolled in at the very end and claimed Victory when it hardly deserved a participation award.

Well, you can say that about almost every OKW vehicle

M10's are actually one of the best AT options in the game due to the combination of insanely high speed, crush, ROF, and turret traverse. Shreks to counter M10's is also p lol suggestion. The correct way is lots of mines, Paks, and mediums.

Long gone are the days of ALWAYS going for heavies, since most of the time they just aren't worth the wait and are to easy to swarm (especially so in the case of the JT).

Yes, because 4 schrecks blob on the flank won't scare away M10


M10 is not bad. It's very good, but when game lasts for 40min+ it's most of the time vet-food for JPIV, TA and stuff like that. Then you need better armor (Pershing) or better pen and higher range (Jackson).

"57mm AT gun"
if it could have the same penetration with default shells as the ZIS-3 and then the PAK40s penetration with AP shells with a price increace to 300mp it would also solve a few problems(if not all)in late game.

"Add a mortar"
ahhhh the mortar demand,oh boy, if there is one thing i know about mortars is the fact that they dont pose a threat unless you have multiple ones firing,by adding this mortar you may solve the issue but dont be fooled,in the long run the mortar wont help you into late game,again no matter how good a faction is,it will go to late game regardless of what you do(1vs1s americans are mostly ok cause late game there doesnt exist most of the time),better buff the Pack Howitzer and you wont need a mortar.

1. So it'll have 200/190/180 Pen and get a buff to a whopping 210/200/190?
2. It's a Mortar not a Howitzer, and a Mortar is important for smoke barrages to help block out MG 42's.

It shares gun with M36.

So does the T-34/85 with SU-85, or Jagdpanzer with Panther, or Elefant with Pak 43, etc. Same gun doesn't mean same role or same effectiveness in CoH2.

So does the T-34/85 with SU-85, or Jagdpanzer with Panther, or Elefant with Pak 43, etc. Same gun doesn't mean same role or same effectiveness in CoH2.

I never meant same effectiveness.

I meant that it's going to be quite powerul since M26 uses the same and since Pershing would arrive a way later than Jackson.

Alex telling us about how lovely USF AT is while asking for buffs to OKW units in the saaaaaame post. ...

go....away....

Anyway,USF lacks serious artillery. Which is why they need a calliope...to break up fortified late game fortifications and vetted axis inf... Adding a Pershing could help and allow jacksons and Sherman's to actually perform amazing maneuvers and finish off armor and take positions instead of taking all the hits and dying instantly like it is now.

I asked for buffs to USF in particular and all factions because USF has things wrong with it that all factions have wrong with them. USF is fucked late game because of lack of ability to project map control since their basic mainline infantry (which is pretty much all they have outside of Para's) can't stand the bleed later in the game, not because of "krupp steel 2OP".

Adding a Pershing doesn't fix that, am I opposed to adding it? No, but I don't want this to be a situation were USF players need some fucking DLC commander to compete.

1. By the time the Pershing arrived, Germany's fate was already sealed. The US Army was advancing so quickly they had to stop and wait for the supply lines to catch up. The Pershing did nothing to change the outcomne of the war. It just rolled in at the very end and claimed Victory when it hardly deserved a participation award.
thats why it didnt made an impact in real life correct,still you didnt mention why it was developed i wonder

2. The M36 and M26 had the same gun, and in real-life M36's had HE rounds that they fired at infantry or emplacements.
it also had a machine gun to fire at infantry so what? why mention it?

3. Sure, but I'd imagine it'd easily run up to 200 fuel cost. I would rather a Xylophone for 85 fuel
i doubt the calliope will cost 200 fuel if it was added

1. So it'll have 200/190/180 Pen and get a buff to a whopping 210/200/190?
2. It's a Mortar not a Howitzer, and a Mortar is important for smoke barrages to help block out MG 42's.

1.correct and will also cost 300mp
2.both are artillery units

I asked for buffs to USF in particular and all factions because USF has things wrong with it that all factions have wrong with them. USF is fucked late game because of lack of ability to project map control since their basic mainline infantry (which is pretty much all they have outside of Para's) can't stand the bleed later in the game, not because of "krupp steel 2OP".

Adding a Pershing doesn't fix that, am I opposed to adding it? No, but I don't want this to be a situation were USF players need some fucking DLC commander to compete.

Expensive Riflemen and paper Sherman's have to take most of the damage because there's no artillery to kill paks or shreks blob and there's no tank that can take a hit while other tanks do proper maneuvers.

Expensive Riflemen and paper Sherman's have to take most of the damage because there's no artillery to kill paks or shreks blob and there's no tank that can take a hit while other tanks do proper maneuvers.

There is a case for adding a basic mortar to USF, but Sherman's aren't anymore paper than non-skirted PIV's, or T34's (76 and 85). All basic mediums are pretty much always going to be penned by dedicated AT platforms.

Riflemen's expensive cost is justified early in the game were they have a clear advantage, not later in the game were they don't. Adding a supply depot as others have suggested would be the best way to go about things.

After the .50 is unfucked I don't really think USF will have an issue with Shrek blobs, but then again I beat USF players without using shreks so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There is a case for adding a basic mortar to USF, but Sherman's aren't anymore paper than non-skirted PIV's, or T34's (76 and 85). All basic mediums are pretty much always going to be penned by dedicated AT platforms.

Riflemen's expensive cost is justified early in the game were they have a clear advantage, not later in the game were they don't. Adding a supply depot as others have suggested would be the best way to go about things.

After the .50 is unfucked I don't really think USF will have an issue with Shrek blobs, but then again I beat USF players without using shreks so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some crap mortar won't kill MG pak walls. It will honestly just die to the German mortar or a rifle nade. A katyusha like unit is required as allies late game. You never see late game soviets without a katyusha, because they know damn well they don't stand a chance otherwise.

The difference between p4 and Sherman and their Anti tank counters is massive. P4 doesn't have to deal with shreks. P4 doesn't have to deal with TWP and autopen(not talking about or considering soviets at all regarding this part of my post
P4 doesn't have to deal with panthers, P4 doesn't have to deal with... Anything from USF really except a paper Jackson, or bad RNG vs a Sherman,
And when a pak or even something as trivial as a Faust hit is considered alongside this, there's no contest as to which dies faster or easier...

57mm is a good repellant. not a finisher.

And there's nothing wrong with the 50 cal... Getting it rifle naded is a L2P issue... Screen and spot,if it still dies, they still retreated, recrew and move on.
it's amazing, not on its own, but supported. But judging by our last forum war with the MG34, of course you think the 50 is weak.

.

Riflemen are just fine. They are great honestly..Again, when they have to initiate the contact and take all the damage (unless you spam smoke according to relic )then they bleed way more then they have to.
If there's a Pershing to initiate actual contact, and a calliope to soften, things get way easier instantly...I'm not asking the Pershing to one shot elefants from 60 range, but I need something to take a hit.

Right now the closest thing to "taking a hit" as USF is spamming a bunch of m10 or having a massive fuel advantage and a lot of Sherman's.

Well, the .50 cal could have a bug fix. It has only 10 armor compared to 70 of everything else, so it tends to get destroyed by small arms and small explosions much more often than everything else.

http://www.coh2-stats.com/team_weapons

Unless i am a fool and its a typo and im imagining things...

Some crap mortar won't kill MG pak walls. It will honestly just die to the German mortar or a rifle nade. A katyusha like unit is required as allies late game. You never see late game soviets without a katyusha, because they know damn well they don't stand a chance otherwise.

Iv never said I was against adding the Xylophone, but the Katyusha isn't mandatory in 2v2.

The difference between p4 and Sherman and their Anti tank counters is massive. P4 doesn't have to deal with shreks. P4 doesn't have to deal with TWP and autopen(not talking about or considering soviets at all regarding this part of my post

The Sherman also has better AI performance meaning it can kill AT guns (especially clumped Racktens) as well as non-doctrinal smoke. The PIV is a more defensive oriented tank.

P4 doesn't have to deal with panthers, P4 doesn't have to deal with... Anything from USF really except a paper Jackson, or bad RNG vs a Sherman,

Panthers are never a good idea versus USF, ever.

And when a pak or even something as trivial as a Faust hit is considered alongside this, there's no contest as to which dies faster or easier...

Fausts don't engine damage on the first hit, and of course you have emergency repairs to abuse at your leisure.

And there's nothing wrong with the 50 cal... Getting it rifle naded is a L2P issue... Screen and spot,if it still dies, they still retreated, recrew and move on.
it's amazing, not on its own, but supported. But judging by our last forum war with the MG34, of course you think the 50 is weak.

It's got more bugs than a roach hotel. Like it loses all the MG buffs at vet 2 and it dies to Paks and has bugged reinforce due to the gun costing nothing. It has a laundry list of problems.

Also your instance the MG34 is fine, while also insisting the .50 cal is shows you need to study the stats, files, and mechanics a tad more. Especially for someone with a blue tag.

If there's a Pershing to initiate actual contact, and a calliope to soften, things get way easier instantly...I'm not asking the Pershing to one shot elefants from 60 range, but I need something to take a hit.

Again, I don't disagree but I don't want Relic to address basic faction problems with DLC.

Iv never said I was against adding the Xylophone, but the Katyusha isn't mandatory in 2v2.
go away


The Sherman also has better AI performance meaning it can kill AT guns (especially clumped Racktens) as well as non-doctrinal smoke. The PIV is a more defensive oriented tank.

go away

Panthers are never a good idea versus USF, ever.

seriously,go away

Fausts don't engine damage on the first hit, and of course you have emergency repairs to abuse at your leisure.
it does 100 damage,and who does repair critical in the middle of a tank fight in front of grens


It's got more bugs than a roach hotel. Like it loses all the MG buffs at vet 2 and it dies to Paks and has bugged reinforce due to the gun costing nothing. It has a laundry list of problems.

At vet 0/bugged/up your wannabeCruzz ass, it performs JUST fine since i use and ACTUALLY see it used it to good effect. it SUPPRESSES INFANTRY Who honestly cares if a pak can snipe it,the fact that I dont care to know that,nor has it happened to me lately,tells you how important that little stat is....

Also your instance the MG34 is fine, while also insisting the .50 cal is shows you need to study the stats, files, and mechanics a tad more. Especially for someone with a blue tag.

I study the actual gameplay because I play the game more than I SHITpost .org and dig for pointless statistics. You have evolved so much,and so often, since your very first shitpost. It started with throwing in the WRONG stats,constantly being proven wrong ,getting owned by QueenRatchet in a 1v1 , pure noob argument shitposts like "smoke is useless vs good playerzzz",and,now,after being owned so many times,you think because you finally looked in the attribute editor a couple times,and gained a decent rank in a ladder barely anyone plays ,that you can base your entire arguement off "did you know MG34 has less DPS than my dick in the morning?,im rank 152 okdubyaa,i got gud" funfacts.


Again, I don't disagree but I don't want Relic to address basic faction problems with DLC.
who said it had to be dlc,lets make it all stock babe.

Please dont make me derail this thread having yet another shitpost fest with you. You trigger me daily with your responses. Please

Man, this is some quality entertainment.
Now where is Katitof when you need him.

Back on topic because mods don't like entertainment

This whole Calliope/Pershing Debacle is unfortunate to say the least.
I feel a doctrinal Pershing would be okay. It could still be countered but would also give USF something that doesn't have paper thin armor. Calliope would definitely assist USF late game vs Axis blobberinos, but the problem is figuring out how to balance it properly. It could become ridiculously OP.

As in all debates it is solely up to Relic to decide on whether or not they will include these two items. I doubt they'll even consider USF dlc though for at least the next month or so considering they're main focus is on releasing UKF content atm.

So, after watching the British video and the Firefly Tulip upgrade... Why can't USF get Calliopes?

Man, this is some quality entertainment.
Now where is Katitof when you need him.

Back on topic because mods don't like entertainment

This whole Calliope/Pershing Debacle is unfortunate to say the least.
I feel a doctrinal Pershing would be okay. It could still be countered but would also give USF something that doesn't have paper thin armor. Calliope would definitely assist USF late game vs Axis blobberinos, but the problem is figuring out how to balance it properly. It could become ridiculously OP.

As in all debates it is solely up to Relic to decide on whether or not they will include these two items. I doubt they'll even consider USF dlc though for at least the next month or so considering they're main focus is on releasing UKF content atm.

Couldn't the calliope just be like in the coh 1. I don't think it would be op, if I remember right the nevawerfer was better. I may be wrong.

The list defined units with high pen, which goes to the point of what USF lacks. So it's defined for a purpose, I don't feel Pershing is the exclusive answer myself, still would be A welcome addition. But moreover changes to existing units Manley the AT gun and Bazooka might help more long term.

The pen list has an artificial threshold, and that's my issue. "moar pen" also isn't always better.
And yup, changes to existing units, so they fulfill their role more properly, is what i want all along, instead of throwing in some unit that might become OP or borderline useless, just to temporarily please some people.

Well, but we can agree that M10s, 57mm and Shermans will fail against Tiger Ace, or KT+JT combo. You can't outrange them, you have low chance to pen front armor, you can't flank (beacause of map or because of mines/paks/shcrecks and even if you do, there is high chance you will lose your M10s while KT will survive with almost no health.

Shermans are certainly no AT unit, and you're not supposed to fight Heavies frontally, duh. (M10 has decent pen with AP btw). Imagine fighting IS2 & ISU with backup - bum rushing with a bunch of P4s won't get you far, and always going for an Ele is another story. So you obviously try to flank, or get rid off the support, or just attack somewhere else. A Pershing won't help in cases like this either. But hey, if it makes you happy... Relic, give us the Purrshing

...

Great post.
Googled for some Nic Cage gifs, but now i'm too disturbed to post one...

Iv never said I was against adding the Xylophone, but the Katyusha isn't mandatory in 2v2.

only in the same way that ultimately nothing is mandatory. If you want to beat a turtling axis team you either get a heavy breakthrough tank, katy, or ml20. USF only has priest

The Sherman also has better AI performance meaning it can kill AT guns (especially clumped Racktens) as well as non-doctrinal smoke. The PIV is a more defensive oriented tank.

good mid game, but its AI/at gun killing power doesn't scale to late game walls of shreks and paks. Sherman works just as well as p4 as a "defensive" tank, p4 just has the luxury of panthers to break through and soak damage

Panthers are never a good idea versus USF, ever.

panthers make pretty much all American armour obsolete. Take a couple of penetrating hits and they can just run away. They're incredibly surviveable at a time when USF life expectancy nosedives. The perfect medium tank. I'd trade in both the Jackson and the Sherman for the ability to just build the panther

Fausts don't engine damage on the first hit, and of course you have emergency repairs to abuse at your leisure.

Faust's shut down flanking. The moment the Sherman takes a single hit then the Faust can snare it, and you're fucked. All your magical USF mobility gone, and your tank is dead as using it as a breakthrough tank means its out forward, whilst the support is pinned by the defences it failed to break.

On the Pershing I'll copypaste from elsewhere -

I really hate the whole "USF doesn't need heavy because faction design" argument.

Look at Ost as it stands now. Ost has access to everything. Decent inf, decent at gun, decent support weapons, medium armour, heavy-medium armour, and heavy armour.

Soviets are pretty similar but with different strengths and weaknesses - This isn't because they don't have certain units - they have everything - but because their units perform differently. You don't look at Ost and say "Ost shouldn't have grens, as they aren't meant to have early game offensive power" or "Ost shouldn't have p4 as versatile medium armour is reserved for USF."

All factions need access to the same tools, but with factional differences reflected in how the tools work - look at maxim vs mg42 as an example.

I don't think USF needs a heavy to be balanced, but in the same way as axis don't need a heavy every match to win. Sometimes though they are necessary, and its always good to have the option.

USF does very much need some heavy, non-doc indirect.

Also a heavy tank is the very definition of mobile, versatile power. It sure as hell isn't static and sure isn't weak.