M26 Pershing/Calliope Debate

I don't really get how you can think the .50 cal is good, sure it suppresses infantry but it costs a lot to reinforce, doesn't do good damage to squads, and is overpriced.

And sometimes the .50 simply doesn't suppress at all. For its cost and sacrificing captain first it should be on the same level as mg42.

I know Cookiez is trolling but going for Panthers against USF is pointless because;

1. It's supposed to fight heavy tanks, that's why it has low DPS but high penetration

2. It dies in the same amount of hits as a JPIV or PIV does to a Jackson

3. It means you need to go T4 as Ost (lol) and OKW can just get a JPIV for the same price (40 for the truck 135 for the tank)

Like it won't be useless but it's not a smart idea, idk why people have such an obsession with it.

I know Cookiez is trolling but going for Panthers against USF is pointless because;

1. It's supposed to fight heavy tanks, that's why it has low DPS but high penetration

2. It dies in the same amount of hits as a JPIV or PIV does to a Jackson

3. It means you need to go T4 as Ost (lol) and OKW can just get a JPIV for the same price (40 for the truck 135 for the tank)

Like it won't be useless but it's not a smart idea, idk why people have such an obsession with it.

Not gonna go into those points to avoid derailing the thread...

Thread is about pershing and calliope. We're talking about using the Pershing and the calliope as one potential solution to the usf's inability to crack late game turtling defences.

Pershing would bring enough bulk to soak some damage, and enough boom to fight for itself without having to draw Jackson's too far forward in support.

Calliope would provide a desperately needed support weapon busting indirect fire capability.

Both would enable USF to remain offensive and mobile in the late game. IMO they shouldn't be the only solution - USF indirect and Sherman scalability needs addressing by themselves.

Coming back to panthers - panthers are mentioned as they are one of the key stumbling blocks of the current tools USF has at the moment. To break a pak wall you need Shermans to push in an almost sacrificial manner. Say you've used smoke perfectly and are in their lines with Sherman's taking out support weapons, in comes the panther. Your Sherman's are toast, and can't be helped by your Jackson's as moving them forwards puts them at risk.

Sherman's just don't have the durability to sweep and clear in the face of enemy armour late game, negating the ability of Jackson's to back them up. Panthers can do all of this and run away too, as well as being effective at chasing down armour and securing the kill.

Coming back to panthers - panthers are mentioned as they are one of the key stumbling blocks of the current tools USF has at the moment. To break a pak wall you need Shermans to push in an almost sacrificial manner. Say you've used smoke perfectly and are in their lines with Sherman's taking out support weapons, in comes the panther. Your Sherman's are toast, and can't be helped by your Jackson's as moving them forwards puts them at risk.

Sherman's just don't have the durability to sweep and clear in the face of enemy armour late game, negating the ability of Jackson's to back them up. Panthers can do all of this and run away too, as well as being effective at chasing down armour and securing the kill.

The PIV will pen a Sherman almost every time, while retaining much better performance against enemy infantry. The JPIV has greater range, is much harder to hit, and does much better DPS. The reason why Panthers are a waste of time versus USF is because they don't have anything to justify their high pen against.

I think it would be a lot more fun to give USF a Xylophone Rocket Truck and Sherman Jumbo that could be equipped with diverse upgrades. Right now what USF needs is a brawler, and the Pershing is essentially just a Panther which ain't no brawler. And the Calliope would be hard to balance as it would need to cost an arm and a leg to justify the durability it would have combined with having a Sherman gun + rocket launcher.

Regardless 5 man weapon teams, no more received accuracy bullshit, ect would all be good changes for the WFA factions.

I don't really get how you can think the .50 cal is good, sure it suppresses infantry but it costs a lot to reinforce, doesn't do good damage to squads, and is overpriced.

Because I use it alot The 50 cal is fine. It also has pretty good damage... (At least it's not an MG34 )If reinforce cost Is an issue, recrew with echelons if it ends up dying.

Mine only die from leig snipes,turbomortar,I decided to a-move it into obers from laziness, or because i left it alone or wounded somewhere, or 2-3 rifle nades into a lone MG, because if it's supported, the supporting rifles can still win the engagement. In other words, typical allied MG deaths.

And I simply can't go without it anymore,"it's that good."

enemy is suppressed before seeing MG because spotter, I walk up with bar riflez, shoot suppressed squads. Enemy does this sequence 3 times, gets mad, gets a Stuka, starts firing angry rifle nades,etc.



I don't lose 50 cals to paks, haven't lost an entire gun because of its 10 armor because getting to decrewed is your fault,nor does having 2 50 cals suddenly insta bleed me.. At worst you have to reinforce 2 models per retreat.
I mean come on. Put it in yellow cover and Throw a nade on it and recrew if its that bad.

50 cal is aloooooot better than it used to be. That I'm certain of.

Because I use it alot The 50 cal is fine. It also has pretty good damage... (At least it's not an MG34 )If reinforce cost Is an issue, recrew with echelons if it ends up dying.

Mine only die from leig snipes,turbomortar,I decided to a-move it into obers from laziness, or because i left it alone or wounded somewhere, or 2-3 rifle nades into a lone MG, because if it's supported, the supporting rifles can still win the engagement. In other words, typical allied MG deaths.

And I simply can't go without it anymore,"it's that good."

enemy is suppressed before seeing MG because spotter, I walk up with bar riflez, shoot suppressed squads. Enemy does this sequence 3 times, gets mad, gets a Stuka, starts firing angry rifle nades,etc.



I don't lose 50 cals to paks, haven't lost an entire gun because of its 10 armor because getting to decrewed is your fault,nor does having 2 50 cals suddenly insta bleed me.. At worst you have to reinforce 2 models per retreat.
I mean come on. Put it in yellow cover and Throw a nade on it and recrew if its that bad.

50 cal is aloooooot better than it used to be. That I'm certain of.

Weapon priority value set wrong so it will get decrewed by PaKs and other antitank weapons very easily

focus_fire: true so it does a notable amount less DPS than other HMGs considering its other stats.

Vet2 removes all the aoe suppression and incremental accuracy changes HMGs were given

Gun has 10 armor instead of 70 so gets gun destroyed fast by mortars and nades (35 pen)

Worst long range penetration of any HMG in the game (1.0)

If all these bugs were fixed your logic would be sound, and lol @ you admitting the MG34 is worthless.

If all these bugs were fixed your logic would be sound, and lol @ you admitting the MG34 is worthless.

I actually play USF

I actually use the 50 cal in game situations

the 50 cal saves my ass in alot of these games

You dont do any of that

Not to say these arent some pretty retarded bugs that should be fixed,but

Weapon priority value set wrong so it will get decrewed by PaKs and other antitank weapons very easily

Do you park raketenwerfers,shrek volks, or paks in front of 50 cals and riflemen?

focus_fire: true so it does a notable amount less DPS than other HMGs considering its other stats.
I dont care about damage because I want it to suppress more than anything. Riflemen do good damage,and my 50 cal doctrine says "never leave it alone"

Vet2 removes all the aoe suppression and incremental accuracy changes HMGs were given
But 50 cals are bad and dont do damage;how do they ever get to vet 2? What about vet 3 alecruzz?

Gun has 10 armor instead of 70 so gets gun destroyed fast by mortars and nades (35 pen)
if it gets decrewed and if it does you're unlucky or you misplayed,as I said before

Worst long range penetration of any HMG in the game (1.0)
I dont use the 50 cal to counter light vehicles and I never have

Now would fixing all these bugs be nice? Would killing 222s with 50 cals be nice? yes,it would be amazeballs.

But is the 50 cal serviceable even with these bugs?Yeah,it is. because I use it.
Do you want hard digital evidence of a USF using the worthless totally suck 50 cals to hold back infantry? ?

snip

Bugs aside, your stating opinions as fact. Look I can do that too!

M2 50.cal is the most cost in-efficient HMG available to the allies.

For an MG which is supposed to be a soft vehicle counter, it certainly cannot soft counter and fails in that department, thanks to a short burst time.

I use the 50 cal fairly often and supported, its a shame it can get concentrated on with models that die like flies.

let stop de-railing?

What is clear is that the USF does need a solid form of non-doctrinal indirect fire.

firing endless smoke grenades into the face of support weapons at an upgrade cost and ability cost is simply a long term drain, especially when you consider non- doct mortars with FREE smoke barrages. PACK howie is not exactly indirect seeing as it is best used with direct line of sight, and its barrage is only 3 (IIRC?) shells with tremendous scatter.

The .50 is a perfectly viable MG piece. Sure, it has bugs, but as a USF player I am used to having units made unviable and broken because of those.

The issue with USF, since Relic thinks that they are a glasscannon faction that has to be micro-heavy as a result , is that you need to use your support weapons in a much more supported and deliberatly supported manner than any other faction does. USF mgs have less survivability than the mgs of any other faction (for obvious reasons), which forces you to play to your utmost to keep it alive.

The way Cookiez and I use our MGs is simple. We have RE squads spam Tank traps in wide "V's," then place mgs behind the furthest tank traps (with still enough range to hit VPs). This allows us to use the "closer" green cover to hold our rifle squads and RE squads, who spot for our mgs and tank the damage. It is these squads that also stop the point from being neutralized. Add 1 - 2 Pak Howies, and our little defense is finished.

With these tactics, you also need to micro constantly to avoid stukas and the like. But what else is new ? We have never lost a game without having bled the enemy VPs to below 150, and we typically lose because of a combination of bad RNG, shitty maps (Rhezev Ice on middle VP anyone?), or just general fatigue. Of course there is also the issue of dropping, but that is up to Relic.

Just remember that defense should only be a screen behind which to prepare offenses. Whilst one player holds the line, the other should be poking across the map.

Well shit, looks like I rambled about defenses in general, not the .50. Just use the .50 like a better Maxim. Rely on overlocking fields of fire and support to defend a position, and make use of it's fairly good suppression to make your infantry squads do shit lategame. Don't expect it to do what an MG42 can. The MG42 is ridiculously overperforming (same DPS as an M2 at long range, with higher suppression, lower cost, and incindiary rounds). The M2HB is merely performing.

Show Spoiler

No thats just your non justified opinion, stats say otherwise

snip

(off topic): That is a creative use of tank traps, hats off to you for that

I have had success with tank traps baiting vehicles into light AT patches. Its also fun to place a 'patch' of these mines (providing you can afford the micro) alongside the opponent side of the traps so when some form of AOE goes off it can potentially kill the whole enemy squad. Again incredibly taxing on the APM but hey, we're playing USF here

The .50 is a perfectly viable MG piece. Sure, it has bugs, but as a USF player I am used to having units made unviable and broken because of those.

The issue with USF, since Relic thinks that they are a glasscannon faction that has to be micro-heavy as a result , is that you need to use your support weapons in a much more supported and deliberatly supported manner than any other faction does. USF mgs have less survivability than the mgs of any other faction (for obvious reasons), which forces you to play to your utmost to keep it alive.

The way Cookiez and I use our MGs is simple. We have RE squads spam Tank traps in wide "V's," then place mgs behind the furthest tank traps (with still enough range to hit VPs). This allows us to use the "closer" green cover to hold our rifle squads and RE squads, who spot for our mgs and tank the damage. It is these squads that also stop the point from being neutralized. Add 1 - 2 Pak Howies, and our little defense is finished.

With these tactics, you also need to micro constantly to avoid stukas and the like. But what else is new ? We have never lost a game without having bled the enemy VPs to below 150, and we typically lose because of a combination of bad RNG, shitty maps (Rhezev Ice on middle VP anyone?), or just general fatigue. Of course there is also the issue of dropping, but that is up to Relic.

Just remember that defense should only be a screen behind which to prepare offenses. Whilst one player holds the line, the other should be poking across the map.

Well shit, looks like I rambled about defenses in general, not the .50. Just use the .50 like a better Maxim. Rely on overlocking fields of fire and support to defend a position, and make use of it's fairly good suppression to make your infantry squads do shit lategame. Don't expect it to do what an MG42 can. The MG42 is ridiculously overperforming (same DPS as an M2 at long range, with higher suppression, lower cost, and incindiary rounds). The M2HB is merely performing.

Using tank traps as green cover does not work againts MGs, (sandbags dont work either) as the MG user simply needs to click a-move on the structure of the tank trap, and the squad will be suppresed due to how fucked the suppresion values are

Using tank traps as green cover does not work againts MGs, (sandbags dont work either) as the MG user simply needs to click a-move on the structure of the tank trap, and the squad will be suppresed due to how fucked the suppresion values are

It still reduces damage from explosives,which is the main point of it

Because I use it alot The 50 cal is fine. It also has pretty good damage... (At least it's not an MG34 )If reinforce cost Is an issue, recrew with echelons if it ends up dying.

Mine only die from leig snipes,turbomortar,I decided to a-move it into obers from laziness, or because i left it alone or wounded somewhere, or 2-3 rifle nades into a lone MG, because if it's supported, the supporting rifles can still win the engagement. In other words, typical allied MG deaths.

And I simply can't go without it anymore,"it's that good."

enemy is suppressed before seeing MG because spotter, I walk up with bar riflez, shoot suppressed squads. Enemy does this sequence 3 times, gets mad, gets a Stuka, starts firing angry rifle nades,etc.



I don't lose 50 cals to paks, haven't lost an entire gun because of its 10 armor because getting to decrewed is your fault,nor does having 2 50 cals suddenly insta bleed me.. At worst you have to reinforce 2 models per retreat.
I mean come on. Put it in yellow cover and Throw a nade on it and recrew if its that bad.

50 cal is aloooooot better than it used to be. That I'm certain of.

This actually makes a lot of sense when you put it that way. I've always thought it's meant to be like a gucci Maxim, but the whole "fire and maneuver" thing your describing is how it seems to be meant, to be used.

(It still should be unbugged, though.)

The .50 is a perfectly viable MG piece. Sure, it has bugs, but as a USF player I am used to having units made unviable and broken because of those.

The issue with USF, since Relic thinks that they are a glasscannon faction that has to be micro-heavy as a result , is that you need to use your support weapons in a much more supported and deliberatly supported manner than any other faction does. USF mgs have less survivability than the mgs of any other faction (for obvious reasons), which forces you to play to your utmost to keep it alive.

The way Cookiez and I use our MGs is simple. We have RE squads spam Tank traps in wide "V's," then place mgs behind the furthest tank traps (with still enough range to hit VPs). This allows us to use the "closer" green cover to hold our rifle squads and RE squads, who spot for our mgs and tank the damage. It is these squads that also stop the point from being neutralized. Add 1 - 2 Pak Howies, and our little defense is finished.

With these tactics, you also need to micro constantly to avoid stukas and the like. But what else is new ? We have never lost a game without having bled the enemy VPs to below 150, and we typically lose because of a combination of bad RNG, shitty maps (Rhezev Ice on middle VP anyone?), or just general fatigue. Of course there is also the issue of dropping, but that is up to Relic.

Just remember that defense should only be a screen behind which to prepare offenses. Whilst one player holds the line, the other should be poking across the map.

Well shit, looks like I rambled about defenses in general, not the .50. Just use the .50 like a better Maxim. Rely on overlocking fields of fire and support to defend a position, and make use of it's fairly good suppression to make your infantry squads do shit lategame. Don't expect it to do what an MG42 can. The MG42 is ridiculously overperforming (same DPS as an M2 at long range, with higher suppression, lower cost, and incindiary rounds). The M2HB is merely performing.

I think I understand now. Nerf USF!

I think I understand now. Nerf USF!

why would you want to nerf them more when they are already nerfed from the July 21 patch. so are you suggesting that relic make USF desirably unplayable?

why would you want to nerf them more when they are already nerfed from the July 21 patch. so are you suggesting that relic make USF desirably unplayable?

-fixed issue where BigRedOne's humour scatter value was erroneously set too high, resulting in him missing the joke by a mile

-fixed issue where BigRedOne's humour scatter value was erroneously set too high, resulting in him missing the joke by a mile

i am dead serious with what i said so now i ask you: do you believe relic will nerf USF into an unplayable state?

-fixed issue where BigRedOne's humour scatter value was erroneously set too high, resulting in him missing the joke by a mile

nice hahah