About the next patch. T70s are coming!

I will admit that it is harder to get to t4. However, all tech got scaled back. T4 is more expensive because it is a special tier that gives access to nondoctrinal heavy armor. The pwerfer and arguably brummbar may be underperforming, but if the panther/ brummbar came too early, they would also break balance.

You can always tech up later in the game if you are floating fuel from not losing tanks. Allied factions don't have that choice.

The OKW Panther can hit the field quite early and it isn't OP. And considering the worse stats of the Ostheer Panther I don't really see how T4 getting a major cost reduction would really hurt much with how meh the units in the tier other than the Panther are.

I mean the Panther is a specialist tank, it's countered by AT guns and tank destroyers still have a reasonable chance to pen it's armor. I really don't feel like it hitting the field not super late in the game would impact much.

People keep saying it's a luxury, but it just feels like a chore to me.

The OKW Panther can hit the field quite early and it isn't OP.

Only because you can't make a follow up with another quickly.

The OKW Panther can hit the field quite early and it isn't OP. And considering the worse stats of the Ostheer Panther I don't really see how T4 getting a major cost reduction would really hurt much with how meh the units in the tier other than the Panther are.

I mean the Panther is a specialist tank, it's countered by AT guns and tank destroyers still have a reasonable chance to pen it's armor. I really don't feel like it hitting the field not super late in the game would impact much.

People keep saying it's a luxury, but it just feels like a chore to me.

OKW's fuel penalty ensures that that panther won't have a replacement for a long time, thats why it isn't OP. If any faction can gain the ability to build a heavy for every 1.5 mediums, it would be broken. This is why teching is a thing, to ensure that vehicles, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor all have their respective moments of superiority. Otherwise, why not just unlock all tech buildings immediately and let everyone build what they want as thy gain the resources?

The Panther is not the only tank in T4. The Brummbar is the AI counterpart to the Panther, and it is very powerful. If you could get T4 out at the same time as you unlock T3 for example, the USF player would have no choice to rely heavily on AT platforms instead of AI. This would make Shermans lose their window of strength, and force USF players to build nothing but Jacksons to amass AT DPS. With a Jackson costing only 50 less fu than a panther, it would not be a very sustainable rate of trade, especially since USF AT guns and bazookas are less than useful in a supporting fire role against Panthers.

It absolutely is a luxury. T4 is something to unlock after you enter the late-lategame. It is there for when you are popcapped and floating fuel. It allows you to take advantage of Ostheer's superior medium armor survivability and scaling to get even better tanks out of the gate lategame.

Except if the OKW player has decent map control and converts munis to fuel.

Yes, that is also a cost, but if a panther is needed it is a huge boon to be able to convert resource income into what you need.

Do people forget that they can convert income? Its a major feature of OKW.

Only because you can't make a follow up with another quickly.

Why would you even want a second one?

OKW's fuel penalty ensures that that panther won't have a replacement for a long time, thats why it isn't OP. If any faction can gain the ability to build a heavy for every 1.5 mediums, it would be broken. This is why teching is a thing, to ensure that vehicles, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor all have their respective moments of superiority. Otherwise, why not just unlock all tech buildings immediately and let everyone build what they want as thy gain the resources?

The Panther is not the only tank in T4. The Brummbar is the AI counterpart to the Panther, and it is very powerful. If you could get T4 out at the same time as you unlock T3 for example, the USF player would have no choice to rely heavily on AT platforms instead of AI. This would make Shermans lose their window of strength, and force USF players to build nothing but Jacksons to amass AT DPS. With a Jackson costing only 50 less fu than a panther, it would not be a very sustainable rate of trade, especially since USF AT guns and bazookas are less than useful in a supporting fire role against Panthers.

It absolutely is a luxury. T4 is something to unlock after you enter the late-lategame. It is there for when you are popcapped and floating fuel. It allows you to take advantage of Ostheer's superior medium armor survivability and scaling to get even better tanks out of the gate lategame.

It's a luxury sure, but getting to it in a normal game on average is very difficult. I see this defense of bad things a lot; because they said bad thing is good in some games rarely this means that despite it under preforming on average it's fine. If T4 is going to be the super - expensive tier then the Units in it need to be just a little bit cheaper/better.

Iv done my best to try and use the Sturmpanzer IV lately but it's horrible pathing just makes it plain useless. I spend half the time it's alive just fucking around with it trying to get it to go were I want I shoot were I want.

Why would you even want a second one?



It's a luxury sure, but getting to it in a normal game on average is very difficult. I see this defense of bad things a lot; because they said bad thing is good in some games rarely this means that despite it under preforming on average it's fine. If T4 is going to be the super - expensive tier then the Units in it need to be just a little bit cheaper/better.

Iv done my best to try and use the Sturmpanzer IV lately but it's horrible pathing just makes it plain useless. I spend half the time it's alive just fucking around with it trying to get it to go were I want I shoot were I want.

Again, thats not necessarily a problem with T4 pricing, but a problem with T4 units themselves. The Panther is definitely performing per cost (it is worth 1.5 Shermans and can easily do its job with support). The Brummbar on the other hand may be slightly underperforming, and the Panzerwerfer definitely is. Decreasing T4s cost will make Panthers come earlier, decreasing the viability of allied stock medium armor and will not address the underlying issue of underperforming units in the building itself.

Pathing has been and forever will be an issue with turretless units in this game. The Sturmpanzer suffers from this, but I find it quite useful with attack ground and as an infantry support unit.

Why would you even want a second one?



It's a luxury sure, but getting to it in a normal game on average is very difficult. I see this defense of bad things a lot; because they said bad thing is good in some games rarely this means that despite it under preforming on average it's fine. If T4 is going to be the super - expensive tier then the Units in it need to be just a little bit cheaper/better.

Iv done my best to try and use the Sturmpanzer IV lately but it's horrible pathing just makes it plain useless. I spend half the time it's alive just fucking around with it trying to get it to go were I want I shoot were I want.

Again, thats not necessarily a problem with T4 pricing, but a problem with T4 units themselves. The Panther is definitely performing per cost (it is worth 1.5 Shermans and can easily do its job with support). The Brummbar on the other hand may be slightly underperforming, and the Panzerwerfer definitely is. Decreasing T4s cost will make Panthers come earlier, decreasing the viability of allied stock medium armor and will not address the underlying issue of underperforming units in the building itself.

Pathing has been and forever will be an issue with turretless units in this game. The Sturmpanzer suffers from this, but I find it quite useful with attack ground and as an infantry support unit.

Again, thats not necessarily a problem with T4 pricing, but a problem with T4 units themselves. The Panther is definitely performing per cost (it is worth 1.5 Shermans and can easily do its job with support). The Brummbar on the other hand may be slightly underperforming, and the Panzerwerfer definitely is. Decreasing T4s cost will make Panthers come earlier, decreasing the viability of allied stock medium armor and will not address the underlying issue of underperforming units in the building itself.

Pathing has been and forever will be an issue with turretless units in this game. The Sturmpanzer suffers from this, but I find it quite useful with attack ground and as an infantry support unit.

Hold fire would go a looooong way towards making the Sturmpanzer much better as you would be able to control it's shots. But I still don't see how the Panther with is relatively low DPS is problematic when spamming is normally just suicidal as you will get hard countered by AT gun spam.

If T4 is going to be super expensive the units in it need to be cheaper because every time I go T4 I get normally 1 Panther out and it will be quite severely outnumbered by the enemy's armor forces.

Switching the Pwerfer to T3 and putting the Jadgpanther in T4 would be nice, if we really are trying to make T4 this crazy escalation based thing.

If T4 is going to be super expensive the units in it need to be cheaper because every time I go T4 I get normally 1 Panther out and it will be quite severely outnumbered by the enemy's armor forces.

Tier cost influences timing of units (when they first hit the battlefield).

Unit cost represents their intended performance, directly comparable to other units. (This is why the OKW P4 is more expensive than an Ostheer P4 despite having a fuel penalty)

The Panther excels when it is outnumbered. It can take advantage of high armor, above-average range, and high speed to make the most of a players' micro. It is infinitely easier to micro 1 unit than it is to micro 2, tanking damage so that other units can deal the DPS unmolested. This is exactly how the OKW P5 works, and the Ostheer P5 is exactly the same.

At the end of the day, it is your decision, but remember that you do not have to rush the Panther. It is perfectly viable to progress to T4 from T3 in longer games (quite often doable in a 2v2), meaning that their will be plenty of armor support for your Panther.

The brummbar does worse than a scott for double the price, it is shit. Shoots helium balloon shells that barely ever kill more than 2 models per shot. Only good thing about the brummbar is its armor. Everything else, its price, availability, and damage output are all trash.

The Brummbar was discussed in april by the community, and "everyone" came to the conclusion that it is a good unit (also attack ground on brummbar is like 100% accurate, so use it for max damage, and you can drop shells behind tank engines to ignore the frontal armor)

http://www.coh2.org/topic/33155/the-brummbar

The Brummbar was discussed in april by the community, and "everyone" came to the conclusion that it is a good unit (also attack ground on brummbar is like 100% accurate, so use it for max damage, and you can drop shells behind tank engines to ignore the frontal armor)

http://www.coh2.org/topic/33155/the-brummbar

The only time I ever thought building a brummbar was a good idea is before the shell velocity changes. Its a shit, overpriced pill box that can't even decrew a pak. Pretty much any AI vehicle > the brummbar, yet the brummbar is the latest and most expensive solely AI vehicle in the game. Its a vehicle whos only build purpose is to troll.

Tier cost influences timing of units (when they first hit the battlefield).

Unit cost represents their intended performance, directly comparable to other units. (This is why the OKW P4 is more expensive than an Ostheer P4 despite having a fuel penalty)

The Panther excels when it is outnumbered. It can take advantage of high armor, above-average range, and high speed to make the most of a players' micro. It is infinitely easier to micro 1 unit than it is to micro 2, tanking damage so that other units can deal the DPS unmolested. This is exactly how the OKW P5 works, and the Ostheer P5 is exactly the same.

At the end of the day, it is your decision, but remember that you do not have to rush the Panther. It is perfectly viable to progress to T4 from T3 in longer games (quite often doable in a 2v2), meaning that their will be plenty of armor support for your Panther.

Except the Panthers biggest weakness is it's DPS. It's not made to take on multiple tanks at the same time it's made to be able to kill tanks 1 on 1. This makes it so when you get one as Ostheer it's normally going to be outnumbered by a lot more than 2 to 1 because of the extraordinary teching costs + cost of the tank itself.

It's not that rushing the Panther is impossible, it's that there isn't any logical reason to progress to T4 when all your getting is normally like 1 Panther. The cost to jump from T3 to T4 is going to be 130 fuel which is 1 PIV on it's own, and 175 fuel on top of that making it 305 fuel for your first Panther.

That's 3 StuG III's, which are unabashedly more cost effecient.

Rushing for Panthers in vCoH was a poor strategy as well. (But mostly due to Wehrmacht vet mechanics.)

The role the Panther played in vCoH is similar to the role it plays in CoH2: countering enemy (heavy) armor.

Unlike the vCoH Americans that always had the Pershing in its back pocket, the Soviets can easily end up not having an IS2 option, and USF doesn't have any kind of heavy tank. Unless the Soviets have IS2s, there's little incentive to build Panthers. There's often not even a threat of the kinds of tanks Panthers excel at fighting, cost-wise. That leaves the Brummbar and the panzerwerfer. And the Brummbar really has no business being built outside of shenanigans. (Sim city, lazy blobs, trolling.)

The panzerwerfer is the only unit in Ostheer t4 that brings something effectively new to their arsenal. But the panzerwerfer, as we all know, struggles to knock a stationary shock troop squad down to 5 members.

Ostheer T4 is a counterplay tier. At least as long as the panzerwerfer remains the way it is.

What if T4 got P4 and T3 got a buffed nebelwerfer.

What if T4 got P4 and T3 got a buffed nebelwerfer.

why? T3 is well rounded and perfectly fine imo.

Stug = AT
Ostwind = AA/inf
P4 = allrounder

everything you need

Has anyone tried custom 2v2s with the new patch with 2x Ost vs 2x Sovs? Me and my teammate are getting absolutely slaughtered on open maps against a team that we were consistently beating quite nicely before the patch. The early M5 completely shuts down the flanks and the cheap SU76 + katy/SU85 completely shut down any type of armor+AT gun push. The delayed Ostheer T3 also makes a P4 lose all of his shock value because there will already be enough soviet AT (SU76s, an AT gun and plenty of mines due to the mapcontrol the m5 provided) on the field. I like to consider myself a decent player with some understanding off all the factions, but I have absolutely no idea what to do with 2x Ost this patch.

why? T3 is well rounded and perfectly fine imo.

Stug = AT
Ostwind = AA/inf
P4 = allrounder

everything you need

You would lose a generalist tank that you don't "need" due to TD Stug and AI/AA Ostwind. But you would get mobile indirect fire.

Honestly I think this is what Relic originally intended: why else name it the "support" armor korps?

Has anyone tried custom 2v2s with the new patch with 2x Ost vs 2x Sovs? Me and my teammate are getting absolutely slaughtered on open maps against a team that we were consistently beating quite nicely before the patch. The early M5 completely shuts down the flanks and the cheap SU76 + katy/SU85 completely shut down any type of armor+AT gun push. The delayed Ostheer T3 also makes a P4 lose all of his shock value because there will already be enough soviet AT (SU76s, an AT gun and plenty of mines due to the mapcontrol the m5 provided) on the field. I like to consider myself a decent player with some understanding off all the factions, but I have absolutely no idea what to do with 2x Ost this patch.

What about double 222s, the PGren assault group (shreck PGs + 250) or even Pumas? I can imagine those units being kinda effective against all those light vehicles.

Guards might be a problem tho.

Vs USF I feel like dual 222> T1.

Honestly USF T1 needs some buffs to incentivize it over the Captain, the only good aspect of T1 is the .50 cal.

The way I see it, fast Stuart is better than M20, and presence of an AT gun is better than ability to lay mines. AA track is an okay unit, but with the buffed .50 and Stuart it's not a wise choice.

Anyone else think that T1 will almost disappear from USF meta completely?