CAS Pin Strafe + Recon + Stuka Dive Bomb in Base

Lets not kid our selves an AT strafe 1 shotting 2 IS2's or 3 shermans is the same as 2 Scotts or other light vehicles literally kissing each other.

What needs to be toned done in CAS is the retardly efficient "use at your pleasure" conversion and the AT strafe doing 80 deflection damage.

Lets not kid our selves an AT strafe 1 shotting 2 IS2's or 3 shermans is the same as 2 Scotts or other light vehicles literally kissing each other.

What needs to be toned done in CAS is the retardly efficient "use at your pleasure" conversion and the AT strafe doing 80 deflection damage.

The AT strafe killing even 1 medium in one fell swoop is stupid. The AT strafe deals 120 damage on pen and 80 on deflection. A medium is a minimum 100 fu investment, and since USF and SOV have no choice but to build these stock (unlike OKW and OST who have panther), no offmap should be capable of killing them outright. Hell, the supposedly OP P47 can't kill a full health medium in even 2 strafes.

The AT strafe needs to be nerfed so it can keep its heavy AT damage, but not murder mediums completely. Shifting it to a flat 80 dmg on pen/bounce, would keep it effective vs. ISU and IS2, while at the same time making it impossible to fully kill a medium in one strike. (not sure how many rounds it fires, maybe need more tweaks)

There is no reason that old squad-wipe IL2 was OP while current vehicle-wipe Stuka AT is not.

In terms of the conversion, I agree. No instant-conversion ability should be 100% efficient. It lets players make choices and get the best of both worlds (early lategame infantry which can snowball into faster armor thanks to map control). Conversion should either be less efficient, be similar to luftwaffe supply (but that would make luft supply useless), or always be on in the style of Soviet Industry.

The AT strafe killing even 1 medium in one fell swoop is stupid. The AT strafe deals 120 damage on pen and 80 on deflection. A medium is a minimum 100 fu investment, and since USF and SOV have no choice but to build these stock (unlike OKW and OST who have panther), no offmap should be capable of killing them outright. Hell, the supposedly OP P47 can't kill a full health medium in even 2 strafes.

The AT strafe needs to be nerfed so it can keep its heavy AT damage, but not murder mediums completely. Shifting it to a flat 80 dmg on pen/bounce, would keep it effective vs. ISU and IS2, while at the same time making it impossible to fully kill a medium in one strike. (not sure how many rounds it fires, maybe need more tweaks)

There is no reason that old squad-wipe IL2 was OP while current vehicle-wipe Stuka AT is not.

In terms of the conversion, I agree. No instant-conversion ability should be 100% efficient. It lets players make choices and get the best of both worlds (early lategame infantry which can snowball into faster armor thanks to map control). Conversion should either be less efficient, be similar to luftwaffe supply (but that would make luft supply useless), or always be on in the style of Soviet Industry.

The AT strafe at 80 damage would rip a Sherman apart still. The issue with the AT strafe is that it murders high fuel units to well and costs to little. With conversion nerfed we could move on from there.

Always on is the best solution IMO, 33% (or more) reduction in fuel income and 50% increase in Ammo income. Does this mean you will have a buttload of ammo? Yes! But you won't have barely any armor support at all.

The pin strafe deals no damage so it's really not nearly as OP as everything else, just make it so it costs a little more like 80 instead of 60.

At 80 munitions its still a giant AOE force retreat. raising the cost doesn't change its effectiveness and just makes it seem overly expensive. It shouldn't pin, it should just suppress, that way units actually have a chance at getting back off the ground unless they are being hugged by an mg42 and a panzergrenadier squad.

The AT strafe at 80 damage would rip a Sherman apart still. The issue with the AT strafe is that it murders high fuel units to well and costs to little. With conversion nerfed we could move on from there.

Then tweak it to 40-60 dmg, or greatly increase its scatter. Even if CAS conversion was nerfed, the ability itself would still be OP, as would the loitering version. I see no reason for the current stats to stay.

Invisied post 77 for excessive flaming.

Urban Assault Commander has Munitions Blitz. Just give that to CAS Commander.

IMO the best way to fix CAS is to make the fuel-muni trade like Lend Lease's supply drops, but the other way round!!
So AA vehicles can actually decrease the potenncy of the doctrine!

How ability for 110ammo can be stronger than 240 P47? Just made few tests. I put Panzer 4 and spam P47.

It dies during third wave/5th strafe but sometimes, if Pz4 is facing P47, rocket will hit next to it, so it can survive whole strafe without moving.

Not to mention P47 can be countered.

I'm completely fine with P47. The difference is that it can be countered.

I once got fed up with them flying around and bothering our Panzers, built two flak HT's and blew those two gardeners right out of the sky on their first run.

IMO the best way to fix CAS is to make the fuel-muni trade like Lend Lease's supply drops, but the other way round!!
So AA vehicles can actually decrease the potenncy of the doctrine!

What an elegant solution.

CAS is completly cheat .... stop to defend this Op commander --'

Every New Commanders by Relic is OP

a bit, or extremly Op.

Why People would buy if these commanders were not Op ?

I'm pretty sure soviets and USF respectively have commanders that allow you to recon and nuke a retreat point. The only faction that doesn't is OKW

I'm pretty sure soviets and USF respectively have commanders that allow you to recon and nuke a retreat point. The only faction that doesn't is OKW

The difference is you can't muni convert into it. And if I remember (at least for Soviets) you can shot down the planes ALOT easier

Stuka dive bomb also needs to be counterable, just like every other bombing strike that's capable of such massive damage. People might start using doctrines that aren't guards motor then.

Stuka dive bomb also needs to be counterable, just like every other bombing strike.

And how actualy you want counter off map arty like incendiary or USA timed barage etc.
I think you need only small amound of avarenees to know where it will fall and then move your troops a bit.

And how actualy you want counter off map arty like incendiary or USA timed barage etc.
I think you need only small amound of avarenees to know where it will fall and then move your troops a bit.

Can't move a howitzer. Stuka cost vs 600mp is incredibly efficient, with zero risk.

If incendiary needs to be made counterable, as it's a bombing strike, so be it.

Artillery isn't a bombing strike. That should stay as is, just like railway artillery and other axis arty strikes (Axis has more offmap artillery abilities than Allies iirc?).

How ability for 110ammo can be stronger than 240 P47? Just made few tests. I put Panzer 4 and spam P47.

It dies during third wave/5th strafe but sometimes, if Pz4 is facing P47, rocket will hit next to it, so it can survive whole strafe without moving.

Not to mention P47 can be countered.

Well the P47's chase armor and are meant to be used against heavies. When it comes to mediums the rockets are scatter to much to do much damage, but they do really mess up heavy tanks and you can't really run away.

Then tweak it to 40-60 dmg, or greatly increase its scatter.

Or just make it so it comes in slower? I mean we shouldn't make abilities useless because they are OP, we should just tone down what makes them OP, in this case namely the very very high deflection damage.

At 80 munitions its still a giant AOE force retreat. raising the cost doesn't change its effectiveness and just makes it seem overly expensive. It shouldn't pin, it should just suppress, that way units actually have a chance at getting back off the ground unless they are being hugged by an mg42 and a panzergrenadier squad.

Fair enough, suppressing would be fine.

Can't move a howitzer. Stuka cost vs 600mp is incredibly efficient, with zero risk.

If incendiary needs to be made counterable, as it's a bombing strike, so be it.

Artillery isn't a bombing strike. That should stay as is, just like railway artillery and other axis arty strikes (Axis has more offmap artillery abilities than Allies iirc?).

1. static emplacement are designated to be hardcountered by arty -off map or on map

2. i dont see any diference between air strike (single bombing pass) and off map arty barrage (for example railway one) - if you see at least one hen tell me it (except diferent off map [stuka is 1 skill shot , railway are 3 shots ] or in visual - russian 150kg bomb come with plane)

Only problem that is with stuka dive bomb is that it come often with recon overfly and in good doctrines.

Also i never seen it useful agains something else than static emplacements , immobilised tanks when i was playing agains skilled oponent

1. static emplacement are designated to be hardcountered by arty -off map or on map

2. i dont see any diference between air strike (single bombing pass) and off map arty barrage (for example railway one) - if you see at least one hen tell me it (except diferent off map [stuka is 1 skill shot , railway are 3 shots ] or in visual - russian 150kg bomb come with plane)

(3.)Only problem that is with stuka dive bomb is that it come often with recon overfly and in good doctrines.

(4.)Also i never seen it useful agains something else than static emplacements , immobilised tanks when i was playing agains skilled oponent

(I added points 3/4 in your quote, just so you know what I'm replying to)

1. I agree. cost vs risk makes it a no brainer though, especially in combination with 3. Howi is supposed to hard counter ele. Yet the good Ele doctrine comes with recon and stuka DB. Nothing in this game should really come without a counter, even if it's a light counter vs off map bombing run. The only thing that should, should be off map arty strikes, which generally are very expensive, and very RnG dependant (also see 2.).

2. There isn't really much difference, except feasible reality. If Relic designed a counter to offmap arty strike, they would be laughed at. It's just not a realistic outcome to be expected to shoot an arty round out of the sky. Generally this is offset, with the cost of said arty strikes.

(3.) see 1., as these are related.

(4.) I guess this is subjective. I've seen guys predict where a high value unit will move to, and put the strike there, or wait until a certain player is in a micro heavy engagement, then put the the strike in on another of his units (usually Katy's or such, that are away form his micro heavy engagement). Admittedly, this takes a certain skill instead of just click, it's still very cost efficient and potent however (particularly in CAS). I don't think it's unreasonable to give the guy in the micro heavy engagement the chance to light counter this, in case of mistake, with an AA unit).


Having an AA unit protecting high value rear line units, is not without it's own risks, bear in mind. That is manpower, pop cap, fuel (and in the case of SU muni), that isn't on the frontline, taking the fight to the enemy.