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russian armor

Pershing ?

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6 Jul 2015, 09:04 AM
#221
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

Considering that Tiger crews were usually experienced veterans and aware of the box design, you would most likely face a Tiger in Mahlzeitstellung. This explains why it was still a threat later in the war.



I would call the 76mm Sherman a tougher opponent though, because the Russian T-34 (even in the 85mm version) lacked pretty much anything that lets your crew perform up to the task.

Tbh: I think giving the Amis a better medium tank in form of a 76mm Sherman upgrade and a Jumbo as a heavy would have been sufficient. Maybe a Hellcat for doctrines.
6 Jul 2015, 09:18 AM
#222
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Uhu, the only problem was the 76mm Sherman and T34/85s needing to be under 500 meters to have even a change of penetrating the tiger frontally, where the Tiger H1 could penetrate them at ranges well over 1500 meters :foreveralone:

When the Soviet High Command tested a captured German Tiger H1 back in 1943, they were shocked to see that the only guns capable of penetrating the tiger frontally were the 85mm and higher calibers. Yet the 85mm needed to close in at about 300 meters to stand a fair change of penetrating the front. Untill they designed tanks with larger caliber guns (Is2 etc) the 85 mm would be fitted on the t34/85s as a stop gap.

'Soviet firing tests against a captured Tiger I heavy tank in April 1943 showed that the T-34's 76 mm gun could not penetrate the front of the Tiger I at all, and the side only at very close range. A Soviet 85 mm antiaircraft gun, the 52-K, was found capable of doing the job, and so derivatives of it were developed for tanks. The resulting tank gun could penetrate the side armour of the Tiger I from a distance of 800 meters and the turret side from a distance of 600 meters. It was still not enough to match the Tiger, as a Tiger could destroy the T-34 from a distance of 1,500 to 2,000 meters,but it was a noticeable improvement.'

* Pyatakhin, Dmitry. "The New Generation of Soviet Armor vs. Tigers". Achtung Panzer. Retrieved 2014-12-22.

http://tankarchives.blogspot.de/2013/03/soviet-85-mm-guns-vs-tigers.html

"Conclusion: the armour piercing shell can penetrate the side of the Tiger tank, 82 mm thick, from 1500 meters, and the front, 100 mm thick, from 1000 meters."

T34/76 had to close in.

34/85 could freely engage at 1000-1500m depending on the position of tiger.
Pretty much the same for 76mm shermans.

Stop the BS now kk? You're going way too much into axis superior tanks mythology and steering thread offtopic with historical bullshit.


Pop
6 Jul 2015, 09:30 AM
#223
avatar of Pop

Posts: 96

All these statistic comparisons, anyone would think this is MenofWar.org ;)
6 Jul 2015, 09:41 AM
#224
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/the-new-generation-of-soviet-armor-vs-tigers.htm

"In February of 1944, T-34 was rearmed with the new long-barreled 85mm S-53 gun and then in mid-1944 with 85mm ZIS-S-53. This new gun could penetrate the side armor of the Tiger I from a distance of 800 meters and the turret side from a distance of 600 meters. It was not enough-as before, the Tiger could destroy the T-34 from a distance of 1,500 to 2,000 meters."

Considering the side could be engaged at 800 meters and that the frontal armor was 20mm thicker, that shortens the engagement range for the 85mm from the front further, about 300-400m is what it was.

Nice to see Katitoff spreading Soviet biased information. Those russian tests are bullshit and known to be adjusted into the soviets favor. Alone the title: "70 years of victory" coupled with a red flag and fist should give you enough information who posted that data.
6 Jul 2015, 09:57 AM
#225
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/the-new-generation-of-soviet-armor-vs-tigers.htm

"In February of 1944, T-34 was rearmed with the new long-barreled 85mm S-53 gun and then in mid-1944 with 85mm ZIS-S-53. This new gun could penetrate the side armor of the Tiger I from a distance of 800 meters and the turret side from a distance of 600 meters. It was not enough-as before, the Tiger could destroy the T-34 from a distance of 1,500 to 2,000 meters."

Considering the side could be engaged at 800 meters and that the frontal armor was 20mm thicker, that shortens the engagement range for the 85mm from the front further, about 300-400m is what it was.

Nice to see Katitoff spreading Soviet biased information. Those russian tests are bullshit and known to be adjusted into the soviets favor. Alone the title: "70 years of victory" coupled with a red flag and fist should give you enough information who posted that data.




It's as simple as that. The 85mm gun had around 100mm of armor penetration at 1000m. And what's exactly wrong with russian testing? Those are wartime tests, and the author of the site is just simply posting them on the internet.


The t-34/85 and su-85 was a direct response to counter the german tigers, and it did it's job reasonably well.
6 Jul 2015, 11:33 AM
#226
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/the-new-generation-of-soviet-armor-vs-tigers.htm

"In February of 1944, T-34 was rearmed with the new long-barreled 85mm S-53 gun and then in mid-1944 with 85mm ZIS-S-53. This new gun could penetrate the side armor of the Tiger I from a distance of 800 meters and the turret side from a distance of 600 meters. It was not enough-as before, the Tiger could destroy the T-34 from a distance of 1,500 to 2,000 meters."

Considering the side could be engaged at 800 meters and that the frontal armor was 20mm thicker, that shortens the engagement range for the 85mm from the front further, about 300-400m is what it was.

Nice to see Katitoff spreading Soviet biased information. Those russian tests are bullshit and known to be adjusted into the soviets favor. Alone the title: "70 years of victory" coupled with a red flag and fist should give you enough information who posted that data.


Would it be surprise to you if I told you there were a couple of different shells used and based on that, you'll get varying penetration numbers?
6 Jul 2015, 11:36 AM
#227
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Would it be surprise to you if I told you there were a couple of different shells used and based on that, you'll get varying penetration numbers?


Ammunition type is the difference between the 76mm M1 tank gun being comparable to the Panzer IV's gun, or being comparable to the Panther's gun! Too bad that sweet sweet HVAP was in limited supply and mostly reserved for Hellcat crews.
6 Jul 2015, 12:06 PM
#228
avatar of ATCF
Donator 33

Posts: 587

Its finally going to happen, PERSHING ACE doctrine, with 16CP Pershing 1 shotting everything with 0.5 damage modifier and a golden skin!



6 Jul 2015, 12:07 PM
#229
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

And never fogot calliope laucher, its better than kubel ace :D
6 Jul 2015, 12:08 PM
#230
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2015, 12:06 PMATCF
Its finally going to happen, PERSHING ACE doctrine, with 16CP Pershing 1 shotting everything with 0.5 damage modifier and a golden skin!





This triggered me

thank you
6 Jul 2015, 12:10 PM
#231
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Pershing will at least be interesting with people spamming it thinking it's the answers to all their hopes and dreams when well, it's a Panther with even worse mobility.
6 Jul 2015, 12:12 PM
#232
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
Pershing will at least be interesting with people spamming it thinking it's the answers to all their hopes and dreams when well, it's a Panther with even worse mobility.


Yes! Let the butt-hurt consume you!
6 Jul 2015, 12:14 PM
#233
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Yes! Let the butt-hurt consume you!


How is it butthurt? A lot of people seem to have misnomers about what the Pershing is. It's not an Allied KT/Tiger I nor is it an IS2. The most analogous tank to it is the PV
6 Jul 2015, 12:19 PM
#234
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned


How is it butthurt? A lot of people seem to have misnomers about what the Pershing is. It's not an Allied KT/Tiger I nor is it an IS2. The most analogous tank to it is the PV


Lol 99% of people here have played vcoh. Those of us who want pershing, just want the vcoh one back. Which was basically a slower panther with high pen and good frontal. With its up-gun upgrade and vet2, it could kill tigers.
6 Jul 2015, 12:30 PM
#235
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Lol 99% of people here have played vcoh. Those of us who want pershing, just want the vcoh one back. Which was basically a slower panther with high pen and good frontal. With its up-gun upgrade and vet2, it could kill tigers.


I know I have faith that there is noooooo way Relic could ever mess this up :snfPeter:
6 Jul 2015, 12:32 PM
#236
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354


Those russian tests are bullshit and known to be adjusted into the soviets favor. Alone the title: "70 years of victory" coupled with a red flag and fist should give you enough information who posted that data.

Don't like Russian sources, even official documents and archive materials, which were used for engineers and military, not for public - here you go,
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/soviet-union/guns.asp
85 mm ZiS-S-53 with different types of ammunition, data from "Russian Tanks and Armored Vehicles 1917-1945", by Wolfgang Fleischer (German), 1999.

6 Jul 2015, 12:33 PM
#237
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1



I know I have faith that there is noooooo way Relic could ever mess this up :snfPeter:


This just in! Super pershing ace with target weakpoint, all the smoke, and a ranger crew that throws grenades out of the tank!

Only $10.00!
6 Jul 2015, 12:41 PM
#238
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



This just in! Super pershing ace with target weakpoint, all the smoke, and a ranger crew that throws grenades out of the tank!

Only $10.00!


You KNOW why that's funny you bastard [NDA intensifies] :thumbsup:
6 Jul 2015, 12:55 PM
#239
avatar of HolyUnlyrical_Lyrics

Posts: 120

Permanently Banned

http://tankarchives.blogspot.de/2013/03/soviet-85-mm-guns-vs-tigers.html


T34/76 had to close in.

34/85 could freely engage at 1000-1500m depending on the position of tiger.
Pretty much the same for 76mm shermans.

Stop the BS now kk? You're going way too much into axis superior tanks mythology and steering thread offtopic with historical bullshit.



HAHA, you are a funny guy Katikoff. But anything you claim, I always find to be anything but real let alone reality

The link you provided shows me nothing than tanks that have a flat surface that has been shot at. No frontal or slightly angled front shots. Stop spreading lies you fan boy. You play the least of all the people here, yet you claim godlike knowlegde. You are wrong once again ;)

just look at the first comment on that blogspot:

All these shots appear to have been fired at 90°, whereas the Tiger's manual specifically asked their crews to position their hulls always at 45° during engagement

further more, those pictures show large numbers of non penetrating hits, which will reduce armor value and capability after a while. Still not convinced.
6 Jul 2015, 13:00 PM
#240
avatar of HolyUnlyrical_Lyrics

Posts: 120

Permanently Banned


Would it be surprise to you if I told you there were a couple of different shells used and based on that, you'll get varying penetration numbers?


Sure, but the t34/85 could not penetrate the front of the tiger at a range exceeding 300-400 meters. Just because Fury and other Holywood fables togheter with Coh2 show you something, doesn't mean it is true.
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