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Stug G vs. Soviet and Allied armor

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19 Jun 2015, 09:30 AM
#21
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



If they removed TWP yes. Otherwise it would be way too good. In fact, I´ve got the strange feeling that the new StugG might be a bit too effective at sniping medium tanks now with the increased penetration and TWP.


It's garenteed to get penned by essentially anything that shoots at it, so it's a bit of a glass cannon which I think will balance it out. It's also got a forward fixed gun which means pathing with it can be an absolute nightmare sometimes.

It's in Ostheer T3 meaning all of it's counters will hit the field before it does so I don't there will be much of an issue, I mean USF's AT gun will finally be useful since Axis will need to rely on medium armor now instead of Tigers.
19 Jun 2015, 09:36 AM
#22
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

Oh I hope the glorious vCoH times of StuG come back.
I love to remember those games where I made about 5 StuGs and 2 StuHs and marched through Sim City like Godzilla.
I hope with the Brits this will be possible again Kappa.
19 Jun 2015, 09:58 AM
#23
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1



It's garenteed to get penned by essentially anything that shoots at it, so it's a bit of a glass cannon which I think will balance it out. It's also got a forward fixed gun which means pathing with it can be an absolute nightmare sometimes.


This is rather wrong. All mediums have a good chance to not penetrate the stug.

I provided the probabilities in this thread here

At vet 2 the stug will be able to bounce every third shot from close range.

The health buff also brings it in line with other mediums. Almost all tanks do 160 damage, the stugs new hp of 560 means every medium tank (excluding the jackson) will need 4 shots to kill it, the same amount as the stug will need to kill the other medium tank. Saying the sug will be a glass cannon would then entail that any medium tank must be a glass cannon because it has the same standing power.
19 Jun 2015, 10:04 AM
#24
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

Sounds like the StuG G actually becomes decent now.

I like how some people already fear that it will become OP. Everything that makes the Soviet OP T-34/85 or IS-2 meta harder is very welcome. Now I can use the allied fanboy term from the last patches: Learn to adapt.

You don´t attack SU-85s with mediums frontally. Neither should you attack StuGs this way.

Meta prediction: Spotting scope doctrines will become way more common.
19 Jun 2015, 10:05 AM
#25
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



This is rather wrong. All mediums have a good chance to not penetrate the stug.

I provided the probabilities in this thread here

At vet 2 the stug will be able to bounce every third shot from close range.


When you have 560 health every penned shot hurts a lot, and yes the most basic mediums occasionally at max range will fail to pen but in normal engagement range they will do fine (nobody sits at max range to shoot at a StuG). The 140 frontal armor means even the humble USF 57mm AT gun will pen it every shot.


The only 2 mediums in the game that have trouble per your post are the AP Sherman and T34/76, literally everything else will pen it always.
19 Jun 2015, 10:09 AM
#26
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1



When you have 560 health every penned shot hurts a lot, and yes the most basic mediums occasionally at max range will fail to pen but in normal engagement range they will do fine (nobody sits at max range to shoot at a StuG). The 140 frontal armor means even the humble USF 57mm AT gun will pen it every shot.


The only 2 mediums in the game that have trouble per your post are the AP Sherman and T34/76, literally everything else will pen it always.


This again is wrong. I updated my original reply. The 560 health makes it take the same number of shots from every medium as the medium is able to take itself.

Almost all tanks do 160 damage (pak40, 57 and zis also fall in this category), ergo 460/160=3.5 or 4 shots to kill. Mediums have 640 health, so 640/160=4.

By your logic a sherman and p4 must be considered glass cannons ;)
19 Jun 2015, 10:12 AM
#27
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



This again is wrong. I updated my original reply. The 560 health makes it take the same abount of shots from every medium as the medium is able to take itself.

Almost all tanks do 160 damage, ergo 460/160=3.5 or 4 shots to kill. Mediums have 640 health, so 640/160=4.


Yes, it will be a medium tank if it gets the first shot it and both just sit in front of each other and shoot at each other. But you can just drive to the left or right of it due to it having a fixed gun.

On top of that 1 AT gun will scare it away, because as I said the ZiS gun for Soviets will always pen it, the 57mm will always pen it.


EDIT: I said "glass cannon" because it's not very durable compared to the rest of the TD's in the game, think of it like the Jackson except the StuG III has high DPS instead of high alpha damage.
19 Jun 2015, 10:15 AM
#28
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

So the conclusion is that Stug G will be OP? Hahahahahaha

Got forbid Axis has something good and cost effective in the same time. You guys are funny.
19 Jun 2015, 10:19 AM
#29
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1


EDIT: I said "glass cannon" because it's not very durable compared to the rest of the TD's in the game, think of it like the Jackson except the StuG III has high DPS instead of high alpha damage.


The rest of the tank destroyers?

Tank destroyers in coh2 (non doctrinal)

- su85 hp: 640 (takes 4 shots from most at sources), same armour as stug
- jp4: hp: 640 (takes 4 shots from most at sources), better armour than stug
- stug: hp: 560 (takes 4 shots from most at sources)
- jackson: hp: 480 (takes 3 shots from most at sources), worse armour than stug

These all are glass cannons following this line of logic.

The only tank destroyer and anything but "the rest of the TDs" to be less of a glass cannon is the panther ;)

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2015, 10:15 AMJohnnyB
So the conclusion is that Stug G will be OP? Hahahahahaha

Got forbid Axis has something good and cost effective in the same time. You guys are funny.


The stug will be good. No one said anything about op ;) . I'm just correcting Alex.
19 Jun 2015, 10:20 AM
#30
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



When you have 560 health every penned shot hurts a lot, and yes the most basic mediums occasionally at max range will fail to pen but in normal engagement range they will do fine (nobody sits at max range to shoot at a StuG). The 140 frontal armor means even the humble USF 57mm AT gun will pen it every shot.


The only 2 mediums in the game that have trouble per your post are the AP Sherman and T34/76, literally everything else will pen it always.


Doesnt matter. the stugs works on the same principal as the jackson , namely death tanks do zero damage. You have to remember that the 2 stugs nearly has the same dps of 4 panthers. they gain vet incredibly fast and with twp they can stun is-2's to death. in fact 2 stugs have a much better chance against an is-2 then a single panther.

any medium that attacks 2 stugs from the front will be afflicted with a bad case of death. so yeah the stug is back baby and with it tier 3.
19 Jun 2015, 10:21 AM
#31
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2015, 10:15 AMJohnnyB
So the conclusion is that Stug G will be OP? Hahahahahaha

Got forbid Axis has something good and cost effective in the same time. You guys are funny.
Soviet no tech, call in meta gets harder. You really expected that the Russian fan train would let that happen without resistance?
19 Jun 2015, 10:23 AM
#32
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



The rest of the tank destroyers?

Tank destroyers in coh2 (non doctrinal)

- su85 hp: 640 (takes 4 shots from most at sources), same armour as stug
- jp4: hp: 640 (takes 4 shots from most at sources), better armour than stug
- stug: hp: 560 (takes 4 shots from most at sources)
- jackson: hp: 480 (takes 3 shots from most at sources), worse armour than stug

These all are glass cannons following this line of logic.

The only tank destroyer and anything but "the rest of the TDs" to be less of a glass cannon is the panther ;)


The SU-85 doesn't need to engage in 50 range and can sight for itself, the JPIV can cloak while having the smallest target size of any vehicle in the game. I compared the StuG III to the Jackson for a reason; they both have very similar armor (one it 140 one is 130).

The Jackson has a turret and superior mobility (60 range as well) to the StuG but less health, really it's a toss up between the two which is more glass and more cannon since one has high alpha and one has very good DPS. But both are meant to be supported by other things and are hard countered by AT guns.

The short gun sherman isn't a class cannon because it's got a turret, very good speed and acceleration and smoke. The T34/76 is just well, uh, not very good lol.
19 Jun 2015, 10:26 AM
#33
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Soviet no tech, call in meta gets harder. You really expected that the Russian fan train would let that happen without resistance?


Well not quite, because the 85s will still swarm the field. Their only problem will be the IS2 number reduction ('cause KV2 and ISU see a minimal use these days), but tbh I don't think IS2 frontal armor will suffer to much from this stug G buff. And stug G cannot flank ;).
19 Jun 2015, 10:40 AM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Sounds like the StuG G actually becomes decent now.

I like how some people already fear that it will become OP. Everything that makes the Soviet OP T-34/85 or IS-2 meta harder is very welcome. Now I can use the allied fanboy term from the last patches: Learn to adapt.

You don´t attack SU-85s with mediums frontally. Neither should you attack StuGs this way.

Meta prediction: Spotting scope doctrines will become way more common.


We have played with the changes already. It was a tiny bit stronger in alpha, but it also got cost increase.
With its survivability and pen going up and cost staying on current level, it becomes most cost effective TD in game, unless you believe 10 range less then 60 to be worth 35-45 fuel and much bigger menpower price(jackson, SU-85, JP4).

I'm not saying it will be OP, but there is quite high chance for that, given fastest vet speed and best vet1 ability in game a TD could have.
19 Jun 2015, 10:52 AM
#35
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2015, 10:40 AMKatitof


We have played with the changes already. It was a tiny bit stronger in alpha, but it also got cost increase.
With its survivability and pen going up and cost staying on current level, it becomes most cost effective TD in game, unless you believe 10 range less then 60 to be worth 35-45 fuel and much bigger menpower price(jackson, SU-85, JP4).

I'm not saying it will be OP, but there is quite high chance for that, given fastest vet speed and best vet1 ability in game a TD could have.


Best vet 1 ability? What about the ability of spotting for itself that SU-85 has? Is that a weaker ability? Like any other TD, it will be hardcountered by cheaper units. As long as SU-85 isn't OP, nor should be the Stug.
19 Jun 2015, 10:58 AM
#36
avatar of some one

Posts: 935

Stug gonna own USF
With Scopes can spot for itself
also Wherm has Pios with 42 range.

If usf has RE with 42 range they coould've used thier M36 better
19 Jun 2015, 11:00 AM
#37
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2015, 10:52 AMJohnnyB


Best vet 1 ability? What about the ability of spotting for itself that SU-85 has?

You can overcome it with doctrine choice as its supplemental and not strat defining for ost. Spotting scopes say hi.
Also, jackso always did ok without any self spotting, so as you can clearly see, its not mandatory in any way and I definitely would NOT put it above ability to stun and easily kill the tank.

You can bypass StuGs disadvantage, you can't do anything about SU-85 performance.

Is that a weaker ability? Like any other TD, it will be hardcountered by cheaper units. As long as SU-85 isn't OP, nor should be the Stug.

SU-85, jackson or JP4 can't disable the target, securing the kill and don't vet like mad.
StuG will.

If SU-85 had TWP instead of focused sight and loltracking, the cries of OP would never end.
StuG changes were implemented with some other changes on mind as well, so we're getting only half of the balance here.

In contrast of that, there is quite high probability that StuGs will be OP, just like T34/85 might be perceived because only half of the call-in changes made it to the current patch.

You can't really argue that.
19 Jun 2015, 12:27 PM
#38
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1



The SU-85 doesn't need to engage in 50 range and can sight for itself, the JPIV can cloak while having the smallest target size of any vehicle in the game. I compared the StuG III to the Jackson for a reason; they both have very similar armor (one it 140 one is 130).

The Jackson has a turret and superior mobility (60 range as well) to the StuG but less health, really it's a toss up between the two which is more glass and more cannon since one has high alpha and one has very good DPS. But both are meant to be supported by other things and are hard countered by AT guns.

The short gun sherman isn't a class cannon because it's got a turret, very good speed and acceleration and smoke. The T34/76 is just well, uh, not very good lol.


I think we had a little misunderstanding because your definition wasn't at all clear to me. Now that you added to your definition over the last 3 posts it seems clearer. I have taken note and have come up with a check list. Could you let me know if I missed something in there? If it is correct, I'd agree that the jackson and stug qualify as glass cannons according to your definition.

Definition of a glass cannon:

- doesn't have a target size smaller than 20 (elminates some light vehicles and the jp4)
- dies in 4 shots or less (elminates havies, Brummbar and Panther)
- has a speed of 6 or less, unless it is a tank destroyer (eliminates medium tanks)
- cannot spot for itself (eliminates su85)
- doesn't have cloak with vet (eliminates jp4 again)
- doesn't have a turret unless it's a tank destroyer
- has less than 60 range, unless the 10 range difference is compensated by being killed in less than 4 shots

you didn't mention it but I think you'd add this
- is not a m10
19 Jun 2015, 12:51 PM
#39
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1


Stuff


Your thinking to hard about it, my original point was just that the StuG III isn't exactly the most durable thing out there and the fact at it's counters hit the field before it does (AT guns) means that it won't be OP because the opposing player will have a counter to it.

"Glass Cannon" typically refers to something that is geared towards putting out a lot of punishment while not being able to take much itself due to various factors such as poor durability or risky nature of use, the Jackson and StuG III are an example of this.
19 Jun 2015, 12:55 PM
#40
avatar of FeelMemoryAcceptance

Posts: 830 | Subs: 2

Dear Stug G

Alone you will rekt T-34/85s, :drool:

Alone you will rape IS-2, :drool:

With a friend you will kill a ISU :drool:

Thank you Relic and Only for 90 fuel :blush:
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