Soviet T4 isn't equivalent to Ostheer T4. The Panther is not a generalist tank, it's a tank hunter.
yeah, the soviet tiers are more like T1.5/2 and tier 3/3.5
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Soviet T4 isn't equivalent to Ostheer T4. The Panther is not a generalist tank, it's a tank hunter.
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Holy shit dude. You can't use callins as an excuse to gimp the main faction. What about the 12 doctrines without IS2/t34/85/m4c? Should they never be used in favor of callins? Has anyone ever said that OKW is op because you can get p4 call in + kt?
The point of this thread is the need for the core soviet faction to have a decent medium tank to support itself. No army should rely on callins to such a crippling extent. Claiming that callins like the is2 are op (and rightly so), yet expecting the core army to remain as weak as it is currently is just hypocritical, when Ostheer has a great medium in the p4, yet isn't op when used to support a tiger.
If you think heavy callins meta late game is perfectly balanced and fun/ not cheesy to use and fight, then I question your sanity.
Now then, please try again.
Edit: in terms of your p4 vs. T34/76 statement. The t34 has a 100/180 chance to pen a stock P4 at mid range while the p4 has a 110/180 chance. This is at vet 0. At vet 2, the p4 gets over 220 effective armor at vet 2, giving the t34 < 50% to pen at mid and long ranges. At far, the t34 has 80 pen whole the p4 has 100. At close, both tanks have 120 pen.
And the t34 in no way is meant to be used in conjunction with other armor. It has 0 advantages that support armor foes (high dps, high survivability), and has NO LATEGAME units in its tier. People stop using t70s late game because t70s have 320hp (1 pak43/jt/ele, 2 pak), not because people suck. Su85's are almost impossible to tech to. T34s are absolutely meant to be spammed.
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You still haven't answered the question of what units do the US players have that can take damage like Tigers, Panthers, Elefants, JT's, KT's? That and arguments like using dps for comparing tanks show that you either don't understand the game or are just trolling.
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Edit: in terms of your p4 vs. T34/76 statement. The t34 has a 100/180 chance to pen a stock P4 at mid range while the p4 has a 110/180 chance. This is at vet 0. At vet 2, the p4 gets over 220 effective armor at vet 2, giving the t34 < 50% to pen at mid and long ranges. At far, the t34 has 80 pen whole the p4 has 100. At close, both tanks have 120 pen.
And the t34 in no way is meant to be used in conjunction with other armor. It has 0 advantages that support armor foes (high dps, high survivability), and has NO LATEGAME units in its tier. People stop using t70s late game because t70s have 320hp (1 pak43/jt/ele, 2 pak), not because people suck. Su85's are almost impossible to tech to. T34s are absolutely meant to be spammed.
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Thats why the p4 is more expensive. That the p4 wins against the t-34 is not imbalanced.
Mate many usf and okw players use the jackson/howie carrier or panther/luchs combo. This is something the current su and ost cannot do. you dont see many t-34's but at the same time you dont see many p4's either.
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That makes zero sense.
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You are going in circles. First you claim that the P4 vs. T34/76 matchup isn't as skewed as I made it out to be, then when I disprove you, you state pricing. Thats not an argument, that is coming up with excuses.
The P4 can absolutely beat the T34/76 1v1. However, there is no reason for the P4 to be able to not only beat the T34/76 in a 1v1 engagement, yet also be able to get ALOT better with veterancy. It would be fine if the soviets were able to reasonably get a TD out with T3, and tech up to a true T4 with good, specialist units, like the ostheer can, but currently soviet T3 < Ostheer T3, and Soviet T4 = Ost T3.
This leads to a game where the stock soviets at their latest point in the game, are worse than both German factions in every way. That is not Asymmetrical design, that is plain BAD DESIGN. If you expect the callin meta to ever be fixed, it HAS to come with a fix to the core soviet lategame, because currently the core soviets are completely hardcountered by a single Pak43/ELE/JT, since they have no armor capable of supporting their infantry against heavy TDs. (don't expect cons/penals to do shit lategame without armor support to kill axis long range lmgs squads), not to mention the fact that the low DPS zis is only enough to scare away armor, not kill it.
Just because Ostheer T3 is as rare as Soviet T3 is no reason to claim balance. Everyone plays the game to win at high skill levels, and thus go for callins, to fight Soviet callins. However, let us not forget that non-callin-meta Ostheer is perfectly viable. This is why we see so many strategies based around CAS doctrine that rely on infantry with maybe 1 tank work perfectly fine.
Soviet T3 needs to have some advantage over Ostheer lategame, seeing as how it is the end of your tech tree. USF gets great AI + great AT at the end of the tech. Ostheer gets the Panther + Brummbar, both very useful breakthrough tanks to support with your P4s that also scale very well. OKW gets the King Tiger nondoctrinally, which can be suppored by AT infantry and great armor options, as well as the Panther for the early late game. T3 soviets get 1 unit, the T34/76, which loses to everything out of the box, then loses EVEN MORE as units vet up. T3 + T4 soviets lose the armor equaity vs. Ostheer, but gain a Katyusha, which is useful to harass defensive positions and blobs, and an SU85, which is Hard Countered by a single Heavy AT source.
Price is no reason to make a unit terrible at all times in the game. The Sherman costs less than a P4, yet is much better vs. infantry and only worse vs. vehicles, plus has the utility of radio net and smoke. Grens are much cheaper than riflemen, yet scale much better into the lategame with lmgs and vet. The Jackson costs a lot less than a Panther, but is much better vs. heavy tanks. The T34/76 is less than the P4 and Sherman, but worse than both in EVERY WAY (except for like .3 speed and acceleration vs. the P4), while also being the sole source of both AT and AI in Soviet T3. If you want to increase the price, I don't think anyone will complain about the increase if it becomes a good scaling tank like the Sherman or the P4. If you decrease the price and keep same stats, noone will complain because then it will actualy be cost effective for and have the numbers it needs lategame to deal with heavies. If you do neither, and also kill callins, you get a Soviet faction that is even worse lategame than USF ever was.
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comm_ash
even if the t-34 was buffed to mirror the p4 ,tier 3 would still be useless. tigers and panthers are still going to have a field day with them.
And i didnt use ost tier 3 as an excuse but as an example. Both tiers lack dedicated TD's. Thats why they are not viable. Teching structure in both factions is the problem not the units. Your post are actually horrifying to read: you are trying to fix something that clearly isn't broken and ignore the issue that messes up the entire SU stock choices
I find a bit ridiculous that i have to explain the need for combined arms to you.
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Permanently BannedI don´t see a problem making it as cheap as a StuG. 230mp 80 fuel so it can be spammed. It should be an expandable tank, which you can lose. Mirroring it with the P4 is boring.+1
I want to see T-34 swarms rather than a single one fighting it out with Axis tanks.
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You are going in circles. First you claim that the P4 vs. T34/76 matchup isn't as skewed as I made it out to be, then when I disprove you, you state pricing. Thats not an argument, that is coming up with excuses.
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Thats not true at all. The P4 is a great tank, and Ostheer T3 is in no way not viable. The P4 is a generalist tank with good pen, this means it can fulfill many roles equally well. The only tanks a P4 struggles with are heavy mediums (E8/T34/85) and heavies. Even then, one P4 can defeat an E8 or T34/85 with micro.
There is a reason that players that go Elite Troops doctrine build P4s. They get really good with vet and are really good at punishing enemy infantry, and to support your AT guns while you wait for the TA.
Your AT guns should be the units that you use with medium armor when you have no TDs, and that is what both Ostheer and Soviet T3 try to do. However, the biggest threat zis guns face are enemy long range infantry, and that is something a T34/76 doesn't handle.
If the T34/76 had at least as good effective AI as the P4, it would be able to punish enemy infantry, and allow AT guns to do their job. I have seen more P4s than I have seen T34s in all the 1s and 2s I have played, purely because the P4 is a much more sensible long term investment, while the T34/76 is only useful as a rush tank that loses its advantage as soon as any AT arrives. In fact, most of the time the only reason I see a T34/76 is because a player rushed a T70, and needed some form of mobile light AT to counter a luchs or a fast P4. People do not get the T34/76 because it is a good tank. They get it because they have no choice.
In what way is Soviet T3 not broken? You make the statement that it is fine, yet I have showed you several times why it is not so. The T34/76 is absolutely the core SUs best lategame tank, and yet it sucks at its role.
The SU85 is a perfectly fine unit, but is hardcountered by lategame Axis TDs. Asking T34/76 and SU85 available in the same tier fixes nothing vs. this issue, as the T34/76 is not spammable enough to defeat supported heavy TDs cost effectively,
and the SU85 is unable to flank due to its immobile nature. Making the SU85 and T34/76 in the same tier will just see nothing but Su85s being spammed, with a T70 for scouting and AI. There will literally be no reason to get the T34/76, if it comes with a better alternative to both AI and AT. It will get SU76 syndrome.
The T34/76 is the worst lategame tank, both out of the box and with vet. It is also too expensive to be spammed. WHY IS THIS ALRIGHT?
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I don´t see a problem making it as cheap as a StuG. 230mp 80 fuel so it can be spammed. It should be an expandable tank, which you can lose. Mirroring it with the P4 is boring.
I want to see T-34 swarms rather than a single one fighting it out with Axis tanks.
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And here i thought people went ET because the TA didnt cost any fuel.
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I never said tier 3 is fine. in fact i have stated the opposite that tier is as logical as a luchs in the okw hq building. The units themselves are fine however. and their is no such thing as a core unit when it comes to tanks.
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Being a better player doesnt mean its balanced. i have seen 3 t70 killing a panther and i have used a single puma vs a is2 and won.
And here i thought people went ET because the TA didnt cost any fuel.
You greatly overestimate the AI capabilities of the p4. and if you believe that the t-34 is bad at AT why no get an su85 and use callins to cover any gap.
I never said tier 3 is fine. in fact i have stated the opposite that tier is as logical as a luchs in the okw hq building. The units themselves are fine however. and their is no such thing as a core unit when it comes to tanks.
Su85's are not hardcounterd by panthers. it depends on a varied of circumstances including terrain commander usage and skill of the players. but a panther attacking a su85 head one stand a very good change of losing. And spam will solve nothing. supported td's are still going to utterly wreck any medium generalist as they should because somehow you believe medium tanks should be capable of defeating its own counter.
i have no issues with that because a pak would able to quickly tear such a strat apart. having a healty mix of combined arms is vital.
its the worst medium tank but still usefull for flanking and scouting and supporting the su85 or t-70.
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Which allows you to spend fuel on other stuff, like a PIV as comm_ash suggests, and still get a really powerful tank.
Don't spend the fuel the TA "saves" you, the lack of a fuel cost isn't an advantage. And wouldn't you try to use advantages?
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Its true you can go for a p4 but i generally do not do so. if i tech to tier 3 its usually to get a ostwind to decisively win the game with a shock unit. if i feel the game can swing either way i still get a panther first
Its impossible with the t-34 as well. Hell a good player is going to those teller mines with a fury making it impossible for any tank to flank such TD's . generally long range units need to have large amounts of support to function to prevent from being flanked and considering the speed your opponents they are sitting ducks to arty. once again you try to buff the t-34 for the wrong reasons.
Paks can be flanked and while i will risk a kt or brumbar against one ATG im sure as hell not going to use send them straight into 2 ATG's. and panthers because the lack of ai are not a breakthrough unit at all. flanking is important and even breakthrough units need to use it.
Well every medium is a shitty flanker when it comes to heavies. or do you think you can use p4's to take an is2 head on. and the sherman will be as effective against the tiger as the t-34 is.
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