Stuka a bit too much
31 May 2015, 22:44 PM
#81
Posts: 55
Ah... the "just like in real life" argument - classic.
31 May 2015, 22:57 PM
#82
Posts: 484
Still, I think that when offmaps massively/completely ignore micro response, that's bad design. it should always
be possible to dodge those abilities I think. Otherwise they can become a kind of "debug/delete" button.
There's no reason in principle that this should be true. Just to take one example, Magic: The Gathering is chock full of effects described as "removal", which eliminate units, or "clearance", which can potentially wipe all units. If you were to complain that your opponent didn't "fight like a man" with units going toe-to-toe with yours, you'd be laughed at.
So delete-button effects certainly can and do work in the right context; the question, then, is 'how much and how often' in this or any particular game. But that;s a rather different question than one of right or wrong.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
― Oscar Wilde
31 May 2015, 23:04 PM
#83
Posts: 484
Ah... the "just like in real life" argument - classic.
If you're presuming that I'm making an argument to "realism" you're very much mistaken; that term, along with "balance", should be struck from every game designers vocabulary. I mention it for 2 reasons: first, because a game thematically focused on WW2 should aesthetically resemble WW2, otherwise its theme is lost; and second, because as a war game, it should similarly incorporate elements of actual warfare, including sudden and catastrophic losses.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
― Oscar Wilde
31 May 2015, 23:07 PM
#84
Posts: 55
"just like in magic the gathering" is even better than "just like in real life". Well done my friend.
31 May 2015, 23:10 PM
#85
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Bannedstuka has to be op, cus its german
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
31 May 2015, 23:51 PM
#86
Posts: 3293
okay so ive invised a number of posts on the second page cmon guys do i really need to tell you why??? I left a few lying around but please lets not make me invis every single one there is way to many. 
/back on topic
/back on topic
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1 Jun 2015, 03:20 AM
#87
Posts: 32
so since a mod needed to clean the thread up...back on topic.
from the quick look of the past few pages and a few more games as US, I feel the stuka strafe is indeed too much for it's cost, for three games in a row my P47's dealt minimal to no damage on enemy tanks and had the 120 muni strike kill a sherman outright and deal severe damage to a jackson. All I'm asking is that if I am paying twice as many munitions that it should have a similar effect, especially if it only targets vehicles, if the rockets don't hit a building they manage to miss completely or better yet I had a P47 kill friendly models by firing a good 1/4 of a map away from their intended target. it's not OP because it's german it's OP because it is more effective than a cheaper strike that deals more damage and has a far higher consistency.
from the quick look of the past few pages and a few more games as US, I feel the stuka strafe is indeed too much for it's cost, for three games in a row my P47's dealt minimal to no damage on enemy tanks and had the 120 muni strike kill a sherman outright and deal severe damage to a jackson. All I'm asking is that if I am paying twice as many munitions that it should have a similar effect, especially if it only targets vehicles, if the rockets don't hit a building they manage to miss completely or better yet I had a P47 kill friendly models by firing a good 1/4 of a map away from their intended target. it's not OP because it's german it's OP because it is more effective than a cheaper strike that deals more damage and has a far higher consistency.
1 Jun 2015, 03:22 AM
#88
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Permanently BannedI dont understand why units can't reflect their real life performance while also being balanced in this game. A good example is the panther. Good frontal armor, and great gun, range, and speed. But since it doesn't have mechanical problems in game it can still get penetrated by tanks and outranged by tanks it otherwise would not have in real life.
Same way allied tanks have better performance despite costing more than they otherwise should.
What I mean to be saying is that cost plays a big role on whether a unit can better reflect their historical performance.
Same way allied tanks have better performance despite costing more than they otherwise should.
What I mean to be saying is that cost plays a big role on whether a unit can better reflect their historical performance.
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axis
1 Jun 2015, 04:06 AM
#89
Posts: 987
There's no reason in principle that this should be true. Just to take one example, Magic: The Gathering is chock full of effects described as "removal", which eliminate units, or "clearance", which can potentially wipe all units. If you were to complain that your opponent didn't "fight like a man" with units going toe-to-toe with yours, you'd be laughed at.
So delete-button effects certainly can and do work in the right context; the question, then, is 'how much and how often' in this or any particular game. But that;s a rather different question than one of right or wrong.
I didn't say there was an inherent natural law.
I'm saying gameplay is superior without offmpas that negate micro too much.
Other games are other games. They are not relevant in this discussion as they are likely to have completely different mechanics. What may work well there is unlikely to work well in CoH2.
So, in conclusion, perhaps delete-mechanics do work in other games. My point is that they spoil the gameplay of CoH for me and certainly for other players too.
Let's keep it constructive
1 Jun 2015, 12:37 PM
#90
Posts: 207
Which strafe are we talking about CAS single run or loiter?
1 Jun 2015, 13:46 PM
#91
Posts: 32
Which strafe are we talking about CAS single run or loiter?
from what I have seen they both have the same if not similar damage profiles initially it was the loiter but the CAS single run is still extremely powerful given it's cost in comparison to P47, I have yet to see my P47's kill a single axis vehicle in the past 5 games even when the enemy armour is grouped together I see next to no damage dealt, but like I said before I might be getting stupid RNG on the P47's if so I believe they should more consistently hit seeing as a 120 Munition strike can kill 1 and a half ally vehicles even dealing severe damage to IS2's. If I drop 240 Munitions on a strike and they manage to miss every shot they have with all the strafes yet a single run of a stuka can take out 1 and a half vehicles including the strong panther why even bother, I might as well steal stuka aircraft and use them since the american airforce are a bunch of derps and the soviets IL2 cannon is beyond subpar.
1 Jun 2015, 19:49 PM
#92
Posts: 484
I didn't say there was an inherent natural law.
I'm saying gameplay is superior without offmpas that negate micro too much.
Well if it's not a natural law, then it's a matter of taste. In which case, you can't really claim it's to the detriment of the game, only that you don't like it.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
― Oscar Wilde
1 Jun 2015, 20:39 PM
#93
Posts: 192
Permanently BannedHow is it too much? If in a 1v1 they choose it as a first heavier fuel unit, it's pretty much gg. If they get it later, just stalk it, flank everywhere, set up some tanks in a flanking position, and wait untill you hear it. Then rush it. Remember, the pathfinding on the thing is horrible, it will not get away xd
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2 Jun 2015, 00:59 AM
#94
Posts: 987
Well if it's not a natural law, then it's a matter of taste. In which case, you can't really claim it's to the detriment of the game, only that you don't like it.
That is EXACTLY what I claimed. I don't like it. I think it would be better done differently. Why make me out to sound like I'm giving anything other than my own take on things?
Good lord, every post made here is someone's opinion/matter of taste by default.
Just to be clear for you, I would prefer the mechanics to be different, I think that would make the game more enjoyable. I may be wrong.
Sheesh.
Let's keep it constructive
2 Jun 2015, 09:26 AM
#95
Posts: 484
Well OK, if you say so. It did not appear that way to me, because even after pointing out that "it depends", you continued to make absolute statements.
As it happens, I have almost the opposite position to yours; I really wish there was less micro in this game. The idea that my troops will just stand there looking at a grenade rolling around their feet unless I personally intervene annoys me immensely, frex. I wish this game could be played more as a strategist, rather than something akin to a concert pianist. I just don;t go around claiming that these things are detrimental to the game merely because they don't appeal to me.
As it happens, I have almost the opposite position to yours; I really wish there was less micro in this game. The idea that my troops will just stand there looking at a grenade rolling around their feet unless I personally intervene annoys me immensely, frex. I wish this game could be played more as a strategist, rather than something akin to a concert pianist. I just don;t go around claiming that these things are detrimental to the game merely because they don't appeal to me.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
― Oscar Wilde
2 Jun 2015, 20:29 PM
#96
Posts: 55
Why is squippy coming in on every post and trying to make it about opinions? You can look at facts and point to inconsistencies between the games design/intent, and the performance of a particular ability.
If the game intent is clearly to promote tactical engagements using unit micro, a cover system, a retreat system, a system of carefully cultivating veterency to improve your squads, etc., then having an offmap ability that negates all of these things is not consistent with the game design and needs to be toned down.
You can also look at previous patches and you will find that Relic has a history of making these kinds of changes (toning down too-powerful offmap abilities) for this exact reason - the stuka CAS support ability will be changed as well.
If the game intent is clearly to promote tactical engagements using unit micro, a cover system, a retreat system, a system of carefully cultivating veterency to improve your squads, etc., then having an offmap ability that negates all of these things is not consistent with the game design and needs to be toned down.
You can also look at previous patches and you will find that Relic has a history of making these kinds of changes (toning down too-powerful offmap abilities) for this exact reason - the stuka CAS support ability will be changed as well.
3 Jun 2015, 15:51 PM
#97
Posts: 484
Quite possibly it will be changed; I have not argued that everything is A-OK in current implementation, only that decisive off-maps are not inherently contrary to the design.
You say the game is "clearly" about cover, micro etc.; but as I've already pointed out you're ignoring the strategy element. Because if that was ALL the game was intended to be about, there is no reason that it could not occur on a plain map without any resource points. Quite clearly, the intent is ALSO that players should be motivated to contest specific territories, to choose to fight or not fight depending on how valuable a territory is, to split their micro between fighting and capping.
And the reward for that is BOTH fuel, used to bring in heavier units, AND munitions, to increase lethality. Those off-maps are clearly an intentional benefit from map control. They didn't build a game with three different resource currencies by accident.
You say the game is "clearly" about cover, micro etc.; but as I've already pointed out you're ignoring the strategy element. Because if that was ALL the game was intended to be about, there is no reason that it could not occur on a plain map without any resource points. Quite clearly, the intent is ALSO that players should be motivated to contest specific territories, to choose to fight or not fight depending on how valuable a territory is, to split their micro between fighting and capping.
And the reward for that is BOTH fuel, used to bring in heavier units, AND munitions, to increase lethality. Those off-maps are clearly an intentional benefit from map control. They didn't build a game with three different resource currencies by accident.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
― Oscar Wilde
3 Jun 2015, 16:53 PM
#98
Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1
Stuka is perfectly fine. Seriously. Why do you have to discuss it so tediously..fuck.
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3 Jun 2015, 18:32 PM
#99
Posts: 239
Too hard to assign my vehicles to a control group, select the group when the recon plane comes in and move the group somewhere (anywhere) to avoid the Anti-Vehicle strafe. Game needs to cater to my lazy play style. If I can't stack at least 3 Katyushas without worry of a plane coming in and destroying them all in one pass because of my sloppy positioning then the commander is obviously OP. Pls nerf stuka. All forms. Thx.
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4 Jun 2015, 04:17 AM
#100
4 
Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
Too hard to assign my vehicles to a control group, select the group when the recon plane comes in and move the group somewhere (anywhere) to avoid the Anti-Vehicle strafe. Game needs to cater to my lazy play style. If I can't stack at least 3 Katyushas without worry of a plane coming in and destroying them all in one pass because of my sloppy positioning then the commander is obviously OP. Pls nerf stuka. All forms. Thx.
lol. one axis guy go CAS in 3v3+, you have to dodge strafes every 2 min from mid-late game on. two axis players, every 30 sec to a minute. you know, during the part of the game when you have most units and variety of units to micro.
but sorry. just because single pass CAS is technically dodgeable, whether you have 2 sec or 6 sec to dodge, so it is just fine.
Too hard and blind to see a single click-uncounterable abilities are cheese as shit. game needs to cater to my lazy play style where i click once in a while and the opponent, in order to counter, has to be constantly vigilant, be ready to move anything, predict where the plane might be called in, be ready to look away from the big fight that will decide the match etc etc. fail that for 2 sec, sorry. 480mp and 115fu gone because your tactful opponent managed to save 110 muni with commander that let you shit muni and click.
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