The root of Grenadiers' being disadvantaged before LMG42s:

If I recall from the mod tools correctly, all single shot rifles deal 16 damage per hit. Infantry have 80 health.

Grenadiers can deal 64 damage in one volley if every shot hits. Enough to heavily damage one entity, but not kill anything.

Riflemen and Volksgrenadiers can deal 80 damage in one volley if every shot hits, enough to kill one entity.

Conscripts can deal 96 in one volley, so only 5 out of 6 conscripts need to hit to kill an infantry entity.

Grenadiers are vulnerable to losing 25% of their damage output in the first volley, whereas they cannot ever kill an infantry entity in return with a full squad.

As much as I am loathe to ever use straight stats in a vacuum to make a point, it is a reality to keep in mind.

A single gren squad can never kill a rifleman or conscript entity in one volley. In addition, losing a single entity as a grenadier makes it impossible to recrew any support weapon without losing a squad.

This all changes with the LMG42 upgrade, but at the same time, LMG42s don't provide any defensive benefits. Those vet 0 allied infantry can still take a Gren squad down 25% in one volley. Without LMG42s, no gren squad can kill a full health infantry entity in one volley like every other rifle infantry.

For this reason, no matter how balanced for long or short range infantry squads are, 4 man squads of any kind are at a significant disadvantage just on the ramifications of their squad size alone.

And I'm not necessarily calling out Grens for being UP or Allied infantry being OP or anything like that, but I think it's a very interesting relationship between the base infantry squads. I've been seeing a lot of threads lately discussing how weak Ostheer seems early game, and I feel that this is largely apart of that reason.

The squad wipe potential is another issue that isn't early game specific, but also related to 4man squad fragility. But everyone I think knows what is at the root of that issue.

Reducing RNG is always good in my book

not really. volks do only 10 damage every shot. and rifles 8.

If I recall from the mod tools correctly, all single shot rifles deal 16 damage per hit.

You recall incorrectly. The penal SVT does 8 damage per shot, the rifleman M1 Garand does 8 damage per shot, obers K98 does 14 damage per shot and the Volks K98 does 10 damage per shot. There are also a few other single shot weapons that don't deal 16 damage per shot.

Riflemen and Volksgrenadiers can deal 80 damage in one volley if every shot hits, enough to kill one entity.

and as mentioned earlier, those two squads don't deal 80 damage per volley.

Hmmm

Pfffff, It doesn't matter how many people in squads of grenadiers. Lmg42 and 221, no problemes.

Rifles deal 10 dmg per shot.
Same as volks and penals.

Also rotfl about assumption that 5 out of 6 cons will hit anything with their accuracy.

It's not exactly an assumption.

Also, it appears that the Mod Tools do not reflect the most recent build of CoH2. I wonder what version of CoH2 the Mod Tools are running.

Pioneers still have the same sight radius apparently.

So...what exactly is the dmg of a grenadier per shot? 16?

So...what exactly is the dmg of a grenadier per shot? 16?

Most of the EFA bolt-actions deal 16. Grens follow this damage profile. It also makes conscripts inconsistent. Sometimes they'll burst something down, other times they fail to hit anything like Imperial Stormtroopers.

I'm not sure if anyone has seen this, but does the cover table: "Open" just mean a different variation of neagtive/red or does standing in the open actually make you take 1.25 damage and received accuracy?

Damn, so conscripts do more burst damange than an Obersoldaten, assuming they hit all their shots?

The more you know

Most of the EFA bolt-actions deal 16. Grens follow this damage profile. It's also makes conscripts inconsistent. Sometimes they'll burst something down, other times they fail to hit anything like Imperial Stormtroopers.

I'm not sure if anyone has seen this, but does the cover table: "Open" just mean a different variation of neagtive/red or does standing in the open actually make you take 1.25 damage and received accuracy?

There's Open (like you said), Ice (normal everything), Water (normal accuracy, 1.5 damage), Snow (like Ice), Deep Snow (like normal Snow) and Negative (1.5 suppression, 1.25 damage and accuracy).

...now what Negative and Open applies to, that I could not tell ya since it'd depend on the maps which I have never tried making.

negative is a red shield/dot and i assume open is the grey dot (not standing in any cover).

i have seen cons take out a model on the first volley before, once.

If I recall from the mod tools correctly, all single shot rifles deal 16 damage per hit. Infantry have 80 health.

garand and the volks k98 deal 10 damage per shot. gren kar98 and mosin deal 16 dmg per shot.

negative is a red shield/dot and i assume open is the grey dot (not standing in any cover).

i have seen cons take out a model on the first volley before, once.

I've seen it a lot, and it's totally RNG based, they just focus fire on a model by chance and actually hit in the name of Comrade Stalin.

i have seen cons take out a model on the first volley before, once.

Only once?! I have seen the Soviet's combat engineers doing that like a sniper and not only once!

Perhaps the reason why grenadiers are disadvantaged before LMGs is becasue it IS INTENDED by relic for them to be disadvantaged.

The biggest problem with Grens is when they lose 1 model in the first 1-3 secs of the engagemnts. And it's quite often.

On the other hand, when you are behind green cover, and your enemy is focred to move to you, they are amazing.

I would like to see fifth model with vet 2 or vet 3. In fact this solution could be used for Grens, PzGrens and few others squads.

Grens are not disadvantaged, unless you mean charging at enemy. They are just harder to use in the first few mins. Keep behind green cover as often as you can and you will see Cons with disadvantage.

Only once?! I have seen the Soviet's combat engineers doing that like a sniper and not only once!

tbh i'm not usually paying attention. i only saw that one because it was the first engagement.

Only once?! I have seen the Soviet's combat engineers doing that like a sniper and not only once!

I am fairly certain that that is mathematically impossible. 16 * 4 = 64.

Infantry models have 80 HP.