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Let's talk about Volksgrenadiers

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4 May 2015, 16:44 PM
#61
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637



That's how you lose map control, resources and hence the game. 4 volks vs 4 rifles early lol
sturm?! here it comes the mighty free Lt :) btw min 1 in the game and here you go vet 2 rifles, good luck with that Yaaaay! :)


Just as easily as Manpower bleed will. Volks arent the only unit available early to OKW. Rifles are the only real unit available to USF. Soviets Conscripts are barely better then Volks. Pfuse come early. Its risk vs reward. Volks dont get pushed back anymore than Grens do. The LT is a matter that has little to do with Volks as its tech.

The problem is only in the first 8 mins of the game if you go quick T4 for Obers or even less time if you use call in elites.

I am really struggling to see the problem with Volks. Since every other OKW unit has a high MP cost to justify their performance. Maybe relic needs to swap Pfuse for Volks? Make Volks with Shreks a call in probably wouldnt be very good.

If Volks are going to get a buff then Justifiably they should have an increase in cost. So less will be fielded and bleeds will be more as well as reinforce time.

There is a reason the Kubel and Sturms come in the same Tier.
4 May 2015, 16:48 PM
#62
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1166 | Subs: 1



Soviets Conscripts are barely better then Volks.


Heh.
4 May 2015, 20:25 PM
#63
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Just as easily as Manpower bleed will. Volks arent the only unit available early to OKW. Rifles are the only real unit available to USF. Soviets Conscripts are barely better then Volks. Pfuse come early. Its risk vs reward. Volks dont get pushed back anymore than Grens do. The LT is a matter that has little to do with Volks as its tech.

The problem is only in the first 8 mins of the game if you go quick T4 for Obers or even less time if you use call in elites.

I am really struggling to see the problem with Volks. Since every other OKW unit has a high MP cost to justify their performance. Maybe relic needs to swap Pfuse for Volks? Make Volks with Shreks a call in probably wouldnt be very good.

If Volks are going to get a buff then Justifiably they should have an increase in cost. So less will be fielded and bleeds will be more as well as reinforce time.

There is a reason the Kubel and Sturms come in the same Tier.


The thing is grens do get pushed back fairly hard early game due to Riflemen and conspam. The issue here is that unlike Ostheer you have a lower DPS squad on top of having no reliable early game suppression platform that isn't directly already countered.

When an enemy in lower game modes as OKW the Kubelwagon is a liability for a couple of reasons:

1. Reduced map control
2. Horrifuckbad pathing meaning you need to baby sit it
3. Not hard to flank using the overwhelming amount of infantry a USF or Soviet player can get early game
4. ebin Scout Cars.
4 May 2015, 20:31 PM
#64
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637



The thing is grens do get pushed back fairly hard early game due to Riflemen and conspam. The issue here is that unlike Ostheer you have a lower DPS squad on top of having no reliable early game suppression platform that isn't directly already countered.

When an enemy in lower game modes as OKW the Kubelwagon is a liability for a couple of reasons:

1. Reduced map control
2. Horrifuckbad pathing meaning you need to baby sit it
3. Not hard to flank using the overwhelming amount of infantry a USF or Soviet player can get early game
4. ebin Scout Cars.


Kubel is an early Shock Suppression unit. If used as such it will reward you. But then again I dont play large team games so YMMV if you do. In 1s and 2s it works well enough for the first few minutes all by itself then with support later in the game. There is nothing WORSE in a 1v1 as USF then facing someone with Excellent Kubel Micro.

On the Pathing the same could be said about any USF armor really. Pathing is bad in General. The units with less Armor and HPs suffer the most from this.

The point I was making is there is little reason Volks should be unsupported. They do not need to be. The Advantage the USF has over OKW early game is SIGNIFICANTLY less then they do against Ostheer. And scale needs to be accounted for. The Manpower effciency of Volks is still higher then any other unit.

But again replace them with Pfuse I dont care. Or increase their cost to 320MP and make them Rifles with Vet 5 ability. Net result is they perform just fine in the current state for their price and pop cap.
4 May 2015, 20:47 PM
#65
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



Maybe because they are not there to deal with IA? As OKW, you have luch/FlakHT/Obers to deal with your AI needs.


Then obers should be brought back pre nerf. Its clear that the okw infantry is not capable of standing up to the soviet and usf infantry. or we spread the buff out and do not lump everything on the obers.
4 May 2015, 21:00 PM
#66
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 May 2015, 20:47 PMZyllen
Then obers should be brought back pre nerf.

No.
4 May 2015, 21:00 PM
#67
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned


Maybe because they are not there to deal with IA? As OKW, you have luch/FlakHT/Obers to deal with your AI needs.

Ever wonder about early game?
4 May 2015, 21:00 PM
#68
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

OKW is entirely capable. spios are expensive and a bit difficult to use but do a lot of damage. volks have their nade and are cheap. kubels have issues but are still very strong, particularly on open maps. doctrinally fusiliers and jaegers of both kinds are expensive but strong infantry.

the only thing i can think of OKW having serious issues with is maxims in buildings and scout car spam but neither are insurmountable.
4 May 2015, 21:05 PM
#69
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

What if, we give them a small increased accuracy buff when in over (or maybe in green cover) just like Ostruppen. I don't think this would encourage blobbing.
4 May 2015, 21:45 PM
#70
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

no (it would not encourage blobing), because it's hard to micro a blob into cover. also, it would encourage building sandbags.
23 May 2015, 20:28 PM
#71
avatar of Berik

Posts: 10

Can someone give me the list of Volks bulletins?
23 May 2015, 20:38 PM
#72
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2015, 20:28 PMBerik
Can someone give me the list of Volks bulletins?


Grim Reaper Tool: Volksgrenadier Combat Package cost 5% less

Complete Disregard for Safety: Volksgrenadiers receive 10% less suppression

Bronze: +3% accuracy

Silver: -3% reload

Gold: -2% cooldown, - 2% reload

23 May 2015, 21:09 PM
#73
avatar of Berik

Posts: 10



Grim Reaper Tool: Volksgrenadier Combat Package cost 5% less

Complete Disregard for Safety: Volksgrenadiers receive 10% less suppression

Bronze: +3% accuracy

Silver: -3% reload

Gold: -2% cooldown, - 2% reload



Is this the complete list?
23 May 2015, 22:34 PM
#74
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600

AT package (x1Shrek and AT nade capability for 90 ammo)
AI package (x1LMG34 for 60 ammo)
Assault package (x5 MP40's and incendiary nade capability for 70 ammo). (nades cost 25)
Manpowercost upped from 235 to 240.


= Fixed
23 May 2015, 22:39 PM
#75
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2015, 22:34 PMCorsin
AT package (x1Shrek and AT nade capability for 90 ammo)
AI package (x1LMG34 for 60 ammo)
Assault package (x5 MP40's and incendiary nade capability for 70 ammo). (nades cost 25)
Manpowercost upped from 235 to 240.


= Fixed


so balanced, 5 volks running around with lmg34's :foreveralone:
23 May 2015, 23:02 PM
#76
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



so balanced, 5 volks running around with lmg34's :foreveralone:


This already exists, they are called Grenadiers.
23 May 2015, 23:06 PM
#77
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1



This already exists, they are called Grenadiers.


the thing is that LMG42 is inferior to the 34, even after the nerf. Grens are also more expensive to maintain and only consist of 4 models.
23 May 2015, 23:27 PM
#78
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
The ober lmg34 is only good because they are supposed to be elite. But instead of it only being that good on obers its that good for whoever is using the weapon. Which Imo is dumb, there is no reason for the lmg42 being inferior to the lmg34.
24 May 2015, 00:15 AM
#79
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



the thing is that LMG42 is inferior to the 34, even after the nerf. Grens are also more expensive to maintain and only consist of 4 models.


The con PPSH is inferior to the Shock One. You can make weapons have different stats for different units.

I would be more than happy with Volks costing 280 MP and having a diverse amount of weapon upgrades rather than just being cheap spammable units that exist only to carry a shrek around. Ever try using Volks as your AI? They suck ass at it.

If you scared of LMG hordes, well sorry pal those already exist.
24 May 2015, 00:23 AM
#80
avatar of Sierra

Posts: 432


On the contrary, Sturmpios are quite possibly the squad worst suited for Schrecks in the OKW arsenal.

About 10 minutes into the game, Sturms are largely useless in the anti infantry role (talking solid opponents here). Thats ok though, as infantry combat are not what Sturms are there for to begin with: Sturms need to repair, and most importantly sweep, especially against Soviets. Using a squishy 4 man squad as mainline AT is generally a bad idea already with PGrens, and would be even worse with Sturms. Losing your Sturms is usually a catastrophe, and thats just a risk you cannot run by engaging anything with an AOE profile.
BTW I think they already tried just that in the Alpha and quickly reverted it, and its not hard to see why....


and why shouldn't Sturmpioneers be suited for infantry combat?

Their original design implied that they were "Assault Pioneers" or "Assault Engineers". They were basically panzergrenadiers with engineering capabilities and their effective combat range was nerfed because of whining.

The OKW has more or less been crippled by the fact that their early game relied on a synchronization of Volksgrens providing a base of fire and Sturmpioneers closing the gap in a flank or a push for close quarters.

But because they can't hit anything while on the move or outside of fisting distance, they are pretty much ten kinds of shit. Disagree with me all you want, but that's my honest to god assessment on them.

Obersoldaten became the new Sturmpioneers after Sturms were nerfed, then Obers got nerfed, so now OKW is desperately limping along with Panzerfusilliers and Fallschirmjager. It's kind of sad really.
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