Axis Goliath

Anything that wipes squads in a blob will wipe squads outside of a blob.

In fact, a blob is one of the better situations where squads don't get wiped completely because blobs usually aren't strategically positioned into cover, but are massed in open cover where they actually spread out wider than your average explosion radius.

If suppression was a meaningful component to the game then it would be infinitely easier to isolate issues of blobbing, but right now a large army in an open field is the optimal positioning for infantry.

Remember, as long as the game is being balanced mathematically from a spreadsheet, you've got to assume every engagement is designed to take place on a completely flat, blank and empty map.

Goliaths that require cover to cloak only make objects and cover even more of a bad decision to put units anywhere near.

Anything that wipes squads in a blob will wipe squads outside of a blob.

In fact, a blob is one of the better situations where squads don't get wiped completely because blobs usually aren't strategically positioned into cover, but are massed in open cover where they actually spread out wider than your average explosion radius.

If suppression was a meaningful component to the game then it would be infinitely easier to isolate issues of blobbing, but right now a large army in an open field is the optimal positioning for infantry.

Remember, as long as the game is being balanced mathematically from a spreadsheet, you've got to assume every engagement is designed to take place on a completely flat, blank and empty map.

Goliaths that require cover to cloak only make objects and cover even more of a bad decision to put units anywhere near.

+1

#NODEMO4ANYONE!

Anything that wipes squads in a blob will wipe squads outside of a blob.

In fact, a blob is one of the better situations where squads don't get wiped completely because blobs usually aren't strategically positioned into cover, but are massed in open cover where they actually spread out wider than your average explosion radius.

If suppression was a meaningful component to the game then it would be infinitely easier to isolate issues of blobbing, but right now a large army in an open field is the optimal positioning for infantry.

Remember, as long as the game is being balanced mathematically from a spreadsheet, you've got to assume every engagement is designed to take place on a completely flat, blank and empty map.

Goliaths that require cover to cloak only make objects and cover even more of a bad decision to put units anywhere near.

Yes let's bring suppression to the upper level, HMG42 spam + Kubel spam to blow up the game just because there is a guy who spam Zooks vs a guy who spam Shrek and a guy who spam LMG with CAS doctrine

The main reason I see people asking for the goliath/demos are as a blob counter, so how about we go another way. What if we made the suppression cutoff for pinning lower, so units in mg arcs get pinned 2 bursts after suppressed.

This would allow mgs to be a more credible threat, and not allow blobs to frontally engage them as easily. This way, we have more effective blob counters that DON'T rely on a highly lethal AOE which can wipe single squads.

It may not be the whole answer, but it certainly could be part of the answer. It worked well in vCoH - there is no reason for it to fail in CoH2. And since many like to smile at COH2 as a'casual player's' game, I cannot see why you object, honestly.

IMO, there are few more amusing sights, than a blob running backwards, when their Commander spots the goliath trundling forward....determinedly...

Relic has a bad track record with camo gimmick units like the Goliath and the pak 38.



Thanks, no thanks.

First of all, Demos, along with all Insta-Wipe™ should be addressed and they have been discussed enough.

As for Goliath, here are my thoughts:

-It does huge amount of damage plus engine damage when exploded, but the radius is very small, its main purpose should be a very expensive "teller on wheels" which costs fuel, and to destroy bridges and buildings.

-Deployed by Halftrack preferably through a commander with Opel blitz but without Heavy Tanks to encourage more Medium armor.

-Goliath itself costs both muni and small amount of fuel so they are not spammable (something like 100 muni and 10 fuel).

-Goliath is always invisible when stationary anywhere except on red cover, and only visible while moving.

-It has small armor and small HP pool but can resist small arms fire to some extent. AT nades and AT rifle nades should not be able to target it.

-It is detectable by minesweepers, can be shot by infantry but has a very tiny target size.

See, what I suggest is not the "SOVIET HAZ DEMO WE NEEDZ GOLIAT BLAH BLAH" argument. I have something different in mind (which might be boring or ridiculous for some). Along with a commander which gives additional fuel without having Heavy Tanks, it should encourage PzIV rush and with the help of the Goliath you'll have no problem countering heavies like IS2.

They are to either:
1) Give everyone demo

2) Remove demo from game entirely.

Exactly
otherwise it wouldn't be balanced, that's for sure

How do you stop Rifle blob? HT, SturmTiger, Brumbar, Mortars, MG42s (yes, more than one), Mines.

omg!

The thing is two factions have demo (allies), the other (axis) don't.

Axis blob is always in danger of blowing up with demo, but the allies blob is never in such danger and they just retreat as soon as they see a threat.

You can see 10 out of the 9 videos on coh2.org trending is about the laugh after blowing up an axis blob with an allies demo. that tells something.

Simple as that.


Specially since in majority of the games you see blobing armies being used by both axis and allies players.

Why allies alone should have demo?
USF and PTRS blob is no worse than OKW,and OH blob is calling for squadwipes.
Either remove all demos,or give goliath.Agree.

Why allies alone should have demo?
USF and PTRS blob is no worse than OKW,and OH blob is calling for squadwipes.
Either remove all demos,or give goliath.Agree.

Why axis should have panthers?
Why axis should have stock KT?
Why axis doesn't need to pick doctrine or go back to base for upgrades?
Why almost every axis unit have upgrades?

Grass isn't greener.

Why axis should have panthers?
Why axis should have stock KT?
Why axis doesn't need to pick doctrine or go back to base for upgrades?
Why almost every axis unit have upgrades?

Grass isn't greener.

You forget, asymmetry is only okay when it's in axis favour. When it's in allied favour it's not asymmetry at all, it's 'bad balance'.

The thing is two factions have demo (allies), the other (axis) don't.

Axis blob is always in danger of blowing up with demo, but the allies blob is never in such danger and they just retreat as soon as they see a threat.

You can see 10 out of the 9 videos on coh2.org trending is about the laugh after blowing up an axis blob with an allies demo. that tells something.

Simple as that.


Specially since in majority of the games you see blobing armies being used by both axis and allies players.

Agreed. But I rarely see Ostheer blobbing.

Why axis should have panthers?
Why axis should have stock KT?
Why axis doesn't need to pick doctrine or go back to base for upgrades?
Why almost every axis unit have upgrades?

Grass isn't greener.

You didn't answer his question, you just posed a very ambiguous rhetorical question and changed the topic.

You forget, asymmetry is only okay when it's in axis favour. When it's in allied favour it's not asymmetry at all, it's 'bad balance'.

That also added nothing to the thread.


When you two have finished casting aspersions and convincing each other that anyone calling for changes to demo is horribly biased and wrong, could you answer the question most people are now considering:

remove demo entirely
give axis demo


?

You didn't answer his question, you just posed a very ambiguous rhetorical question and changed the topic.

Because the "asymmetrical balance" answer which is the obvious one would be instantly dismissed, so I've decided it will be better to point out that there are good things on axis side which allies can dream off.

There is no logical reason why something should be taken from allies or given to axis without taking something from axis or giving it to allies in return.

I have also answered that already before in the thread.

You didn't answer his question, you just posed a very ambiguous rhetorical question and changed the topic.

?

What do you expect? The majority of this site is filled with ally-fanbois and this kaiof guy is probably the worst. He's just making pointless opinions in every thread I read defending the allies factions every time something goes in the axis'-favour. Just... pretend like you don't see him.
Let Relic decide

Because the "asymmetrical balance" answer which is the obvious one would be instantly dismissed, so I've decided it will be better to point out that there are good things on axis side which allies can dream off.

There is no logical reason why something should be taken from allies or given to axis without taking something from axis or giving it to allies in return.

I have also answered that already before in the thread.

A) In the question I posed it was not said that they should remove demo from allies or giving it to the axis and nothing else be changed. You jumped to that conclusion yourself.

B) There is an absolutely logical reason why sometimes something can be taken away without something being given in return!

Have you ever balanced weights on a scale? If you put too much on one side, you should take something away from said side.

For allies, losing demo would not make them too weak to compete. It would just level the playing field and remove one of the most frustrating features of the game.



Hey TheChillty Yeah, I know. But sometimes he makes good points or adds useful information so I'm trying to convert him to rationalism so he can do it without also trying to start a flame war. In any case, yeah Relic will decide :/

A) In the question I posed it was not said that they should remove demo from allies or giving it to the axis and nothing else be changed. You jumped to that conclusion yourself.

B) There is an absolutely logical reason why sometimes something can be taken away without something being given in return!

Have you ever balanced weights on a scale? If you put too much on one side, you should take something away from said side.

Then perhaps you should take that into account next time you form such question/suggestion. Your weight example is perfect in this case.
You can't propose putting something on the other side without taking something from there first or if you take something from one side, you should take something from another so the weight checks out.

You seem to be making a critical mistake of assuming the weights aren't balanced right now.
You have demos on one side and multiple, effective non doctrinal infantry and armor upgrades on the other.

For allies, losing demo would not make them too weak to compete. It would just level the playing field and remove one of the most frustrating features of the game.

You realize the same can be said about literally every single thing axis have for them that allies don't and it will be equally valid, right?

Why axis should have panthers?
Why axis should have stock KT?
Why axis doesn't need to pick doctrine or go back to base for upgrades?
Why almost every axis unit have upgrades?

Grass isn't greener.

Why soviet have call-in is-2s?
KT is no longer worth it for price sadly.U can get 2-2.5 is-2s by that time.Why soviets have so much iwin cheese?
Why soviets don't need to tech?Why americans get free units?Why ost has to build teching structures with pios in base?
Why axis squads are so much easier to wipe?

Grass isn't greener on this side either.Stick to topic without trying to divert with ur normal useless antics.
Who needs anti-blob more?Soviets now blobbingw ith PTRS,Americans greatest blobbers with ober nerf.Allies just as bad blobbers as axis,perhaps even more.
But they have the tools to counter blobbing easily.Scotts,120 mm,katyushas,easy sov minespam,HE sherman etc.
For axis its largely stukas for OKW ,which will lock out armor,pzwerfer tech issue and poor performance,brumbbar locked out and huge price,mgs overrun with ease once blob hits critical mass.Sturmtiger ..lol.Mortars can't wipe.No minespam.

On top of this allies get demos?Why?Its completely justified given the current allied blobbing..that goliath be introduced or demos be removed altogether.
Either answer to point or don't bother.

Why soviet have call-in is-2s?

Tiger.
That was easy.

KT is no longer worth it for price sadly.U can get 2-2.5 is-2s by that time.Why soviets have so much iwin cheese?

Then don't build it if you think so. Its not the only tank OKW have.
I believe T34/76 is not worth its price, still there are people making them, some even have some success.

Why soviets don't need to tech?Why americans get free units?Why ost has to build teching structures with pios in base?

Ost skips tech just as well.
This is way too easy for me.

Why axis squads are so much easier to wipe?

Because allied armor with exception of a single tank are much easier to destroy.
I'll grab a popcorn and sit comfortably while you try to explain to my why 240mp is more then 320mp/100fu.

Grass isn't greener on this side either.Stick to topic without trying to divert with ur normal useless antics.

Thank you for repeating my point, here, have a cookie. And I'll add as much relevant examples as it takes for narrow minds like yours to grasp the idea.

Who needs anti-blob more?Soviets now blobbingw ith PTRS,Americans greatest blobbers with ober nerf.Allies just as bad blobbers as axis,perhaps even more.

Why are you crying about 120mm and demos wiping squads in on thread and asking for it for axis in other?
And its not like axis don't have anti blob options.
Pin plane anyone?
Sturmtiger? You certainly do not need to spam panthers when you're facing infantry blobs.
You have different anti blob options.
Its called asymmetrical balance.

But they have the tools to counter blobbing easily.Scotts,120 mm,katyushas,easy sov minespam,HE sherman etc.
For axis its largely stukas for OKW ,which will lock out armor,pzwerfer tech issue and poor performance,brumbbar locked out and huge price,mgs overrun with ease once blob hits critical mass.Sturmtiger ..lol.Mortars can't wipe.No minespam.

On top of this allies get demos?Why?Its completely justified given the current allied blobbing..that goliath be introduced or demos be removed altogether.
Either answer to point or don't bother.

I already did. Just because you have chosen to be blind and deaf about my answer and ignore it, repeating the question like a retarded kid regardless how many times you'll get answered doesn't mean its not there.

And no, medium tanks are not blob counters, perhaps you have forgotten where shreck upgrade button is?
Now you answer me, why you bitch about demos and 120mm wiping squads and then ask for the same things for axis, because to me you are not looking for a balance, but supremacy.