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russian armor

Demos for axis

23 Apr 2015, 21:56 PM
#1
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
I think it might be a bit unfair that axis don't get demos. I realize they will never be added, and asymmetrical balance and what not. But I want to know, would it be balanced if the demos required minesweepers for pioneers and sturmpioneers to be laid? Or in general required even combat engineers to have minesweepers to lay them. Assault engi's would keep them by default.

Because a lot of us say demos are fine, but the whole surprise one shots are really annoying. Atleast when you spot a engineer squad with sweepers you can have a better chance at guessing if demos have been laid. Besides they'd be less effective for axis due to squad sizes, but would still have good chance to wipe. Not to mention how strapped ostheer and okw can get for munitions. I doubt demos would be very common, just another option. I mean they are just arbitrarily not available to axis just because.
23 Apr 2015, 22:11 PM
#2
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300

I think it might be a bit unfair that axis don't get demos. I realize they will never be added, and asymmetrical balance and what not. But I want to know, would it be balanced if the demos required minesweepers for pioneers and sturmpioneers to be laid? Or in general required even combat engineers to have minesweepers to lay them. Assault engi's would keep them by default.

Because a lot of us say demos are fine, but the whole surprise one shots are really annoying. Atleast when you spot a engineer squad with sweepers you can have a better chance at guessing if demos have been laid. Besides they'd be less effective for axis due to squad sizes, but would still have good chance to wipe. Not to mention how strapped ostheer and okw can get for munitions. I doubt demos would be very common, just another option. I mean they are just arbitrarily not available to axis just because.



I feel that demos should be available to all facrions but only through doctrine. Name ones centered around suprise and ambush.
23 Apr 2015, 22:18 PM
#3
avatar of Mortar
Donator 22

Posts: 559

Bring back the Goliath!!!
23 Apr 2015, 22:19 PM
#4
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2015, 22:18 PMMortar
Bring back the Goliath!!!


Yup, if we're gonna give Axis demos it might as well be Goliaths.
23 Apr 2015, 22:25 PM
#5
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Together with non doc weapon upgrades for soviets and heavy tanks for USF?

Every army lacks something.
If you believe one aspect to be unfair because X army doesn't have it, then no reason exists why other armies can't have what X army have and they don't.
23 Apr 2015, 22:29 PM
#6
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2015, 22:25 PMKatitof
Together with non doc weapon upgrades for soviets and heavy tanks for USF?

Every army lacks something.
If you believe one aspect to be unfair because X army doesn't have it, then no reason exists why other armies can't have what X army have and they don't.

Fair enough. Though heavy tanks for usf didnt exist. There's like the m6, and that was never deployed.
23 Apr 2015, 22:32 PM
#7
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Doesn't have to be heavy for USF, they lack plenty compared to OKW or ost :)
Was just an example for the argument.

Anyway, you got the point.
23 Apr 2015, 22:40 PM
#8
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300


Fair enough. Though heavy tanks for usf didnt exist. There's like the m6, and that was never deployed.


?

M6,M4AE2,M26,T29/30,T95(heavy Assault Gun)


US had heavy tanks Besides the Jumbo, The US general staff understood there limitations and elected not to start production, that until late war with the M26
23 Apr 2015, 22:46 PM
#9
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned


?

M6,M4AE2,M26,T29/30,T95(heavy Assault Gun)


US had heavy tanks Besides the Jumbo, The US general staff understood there limitations and elected not to start production, that until late war with the M26

Meh jumbo maybe. Pershing was medium, classified a heavy for propoganda/morale purposes during ww2. T29/t30, t95/t28 tank destroyer weren't really built. 1-2 or none at all. None were even sent to the war.
23 Apr 2015, 22:49 PM
#10
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300


Meh jumbo maybe. Pershing was medium, classified a heavy for propoganda/morale purposes during ww2. T29/t30, t95/t28 tank destroyer weren't really built. 1-2 or none at all. None were even sent to the war.



your original post said exist which implied the US was in some inept and couldnt make any. US had the designed and they all completed trials and were ready for production said production never happened, but I guess its just all semantics.

Pershing was a Heavy Tank during WWII and reclassified after WWII because the bar for armor and firepower for tanks had gone up. Saying the Pershing was a medium tanks means both the IS-1 and Tiger I were also mediums as all had comparable firepower armor and roles.
23 Apr 2015, 23:54 PM
#11
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2015, 22:25 PMKatitof
Together with non doc weapon upgrades for soviets and heavy tanks for USF?

Every army lacks something.
If you believe one aspect to be unfair because X army doesn't have it, then no reason exists why other armies can't have what X army have and they don't.



Considering that nothing is unique to any of the armies be it squad sizes or units I don't really see how this argument is applicable anymore. USF doesn't have heavies because it goes against the singular design of the faction, same reason OKW doesn't get mediums. Are both ides retarded? Yes, but it's the world we live in.

Demo's are just very easy to use and offer extremely high reward, and considering how big a problem blobs are I think everyone should be in favor of more tools being given to the factions to reduce it.

Why not give JLI demo's instead of booby trap? The whole doctrine revolves around using munitions, so why not demos?

EDIT: Obviously pio's should get demo's or Ost.
23 Apr 2015, 23:58 PM
#12
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

As much as I like to use them, demos are in fact a seriously shitty feature from a gameplay perspective, allowing no brainer squadwipes. Extending that particular facet of cheese to the Axis will not improve the game, au contraire, no demos at all, now were talking.
24 Apr 2015, 00:07 AM
#13
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

required even combat engineers to have minesweepers to lay them. Assault engi's would keep them by default.



+1

24 Apr 2015, 00:11 AM
#14
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Or in general required even combat engineers to have minesweepers to lay them.

I like this idea too.
24 Apr 2015, 00:13 AM
#15
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

As much as I like to use them, demos are in fact a seriously shitty feature from a gameplay perspective, allowing no brainer squadwipes. Extending that particular facet of cheese to the Axis will not improve the game, au contraire, no demos at all, now were talking.


To defend demos, they do cost 90 munitions and must be layed by engies plus can be spotted and destroyed. They are extremely good for dealing with blobs and i remember Relic wanting to buff blob counters. Anything that counters blobbing (demos) and is still counterable (with sweepers) is something ill promote. The only thing id like to see with demos though is that they are more usefull versus blobs (bigger explosion) but more expensive so they are less spammed and wont be used to wipe single capping squads for only 90 muni.
24 Apr 2015, 00:29 AM
#16
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Even if they cost say 120 munis they still would be more than viable for just that purpose. Virtually any muni investment always is.
24 Apr 2015, 00:36 AM
#17
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned


To defend demos, they do cost 90 munitions and must be layed by engies plus can be spotted and destroyed. They are extremely good for dealing with blobs and i remember Relic wanting to buff blob counters. Anything that counters blobbing (demos) and is still counterable (with sweepers) is something ill promote. The only thing id like to see with demos though is that they are more usefull versus blobs (bigger explosion) but more expensive so they are less spammed and wont be used to wipe single capping squads for only 90 muni.
I understand the purpose for countering blobs, only okw blobs(the only real blobs, and they got nerfed cuz volk and ober nerf. Also what about lmg rifle/parablobs?). Demos usually just single out single squads wiping them. Since soviets usually float muni like mad men unless they mine spam or throw a nade at every engagement. Demoes are very affordable. While I want them to stay effective. I think locking them behind a minesweeper upgrade and possibly giving them to pios with minesweeper might make it a bit more fair. You could even say the tradeoff would not be in osts favor at all if they costed 90 muni. I mean soviet squads have a greater chance to survive a demo and ost is more muni starved than anyone. It may actually end up hurting an ostheer player to lay down demos in the long run unless they have muni conversion or munitions caches.




your original post said exist which implied the US was in some inept and couldnt make any. US had the designed and they all completed trials and were ready for production said production never happened, but I guess its just all semantics.

Pershing was a Heavy Tank during WWII and reclassified after WWII because the bar for armor and firepower for tanks had gone up. Saying the Pershing was a medium tanks means both the IS-1 and Tiger I were also mediums as all had comparable firepower armor and roles.
Pretty sure thats not how it works. Pershing was classified a medium after ww2. Another example being, panthers being classified as heavy tanks by USA but the germans built it as a medium.
24 Apr 2015, 00:41 AM
#18
avatar of sluzbenik

Posts: 879

Relic gave Axis officers, so they could blob better.

They gave Soviets demos so they could kill those blobs.

You can give Axis demos if you give Soviets officers so Sov blobs are as good as US blobs.

And then we're getting close to mirror matches. (BTW, the best COH2 gameplay is Osteer vs. Ostheer but everyone says mirrors suck, despite that fact that both players need to use combined arms to win.)

24 Apr 2015, 00:43 AM
#19
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Relic gave Axis officers, so they could blob better.

They gave Soviets demos so they could kill those blobs.

You can give Axis demos if you give Soviets officer so Sov blobs are as good as US blobs.

And then we're getting close to mirror matches. (BTW, the best COH2 gameplay is Osteer vs. Ostheer but everyone says mirrors suck, despite that fact that both factions need to use combined arms to win.)

Still have no clue why commissars were never included. Americans get those free squads with teching that have special abilities for nearby infantry. Essentially they are basically officers, just german ones are different. Arty officer aint even that great. Sturm officer is pretty good, but you hardly see anybody use it right. Sturm officer is fairly balanced IMO, demoes aren't required to beat him.
24 Apr 2015, 01:16 AM
#20
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300

Pretty sure thats not how it works. Pershing was classified a medium after ww2. Another example being, panthers being classified as heavy tanks by USA but the germans built it as a medium.




Yeah after the war..... Because after the war the overall bar for what made a medium tank a medium tank and a heavy tank heavy had gone up in the armies eyes so they adjusted its classification and the pershing was actually meant to replace M4 as the primary US medium tank.

I have no idea what your getting at with your Panther statement Allied tank classification /=/ Axis tank classification.

I said this multiple times

The Panther was a medium tank because it was designed and deployed as a medium tank to replace the Panzer IV

Sure the Panther had a comparable gun and armor to the Tiger I but they had different roles according to doctrine. Tigers were organized in their own independent Heavy Tank Batallions to strike at strong points or to bolster defense in key areas. Panthers were utilized in normal Panzer divisions.


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