Link Upkeep and popcap cost with Tier building

I always think a good way to strongly reduce blobs in general is to make it hurt badly your economy. Not only with losses but with a highest upkeep rate that make you struggle if you don't overcome fast your opponent.
I'm not saying Blob isn't part of the gameplay, but it should have a stronger downside, something that deny you winning on the long run. Putting it back into the all-in strat categories, available but short in life during a match.

Coh1 had a interesting system design around upkeep and popcap linked to territory. But since someone in the high level decision making at Relic doesn't like the concept because it removes all the fun around come back. Maybe another way around is possible not including territories.

So why don't linking Popcap with Tier Building? But not in a way tier buildings unlock more popcap.

1st option: unit popcap cost reducing with Tier buildings (for free or not, I'm not into that level of detail).
So for example a rifle squad today cost 7pop. (numbers below are only as example)
With this change, a riflesquad cost, at the beginning of the game without T1 or T2, 12pop.
Building T1 decrease it pop cost at 10pop
Building T2 decrease it pop cost at 8pop
Building T3 decrease it pop cost at 7pop

And all the same for all basic stock units, cons/volks/gren/rifles and call-ins units squads.

The outcome would be a economy less viable if blobbing and not teching, blobbing would become a playstyle that locks you in low tiers with few resources. Instead people would be force to tier up to reduce the popcap rate and diversify its army in order to keep the popcap level acceptable before reaching the last tier where the situation would become again equal as today in term of popcap cost.


2nd option The exact opposite way around. It seems a bit silly but why not discuss about it as well.
Every time you build a tier building, your basic stock squand have their upkeep increased.
So instead of a riflesquad a 7pop, let's say it starts at 5pop
Building T1 increase it at 7pop
Building T2 increase it at 9pop
Building T3 increase it at 11pop

So more the game last, more blobbing would cost in term of popcap.
With this option I can see many issues already, I'm not sure this option is more viable, but just think about it, maybe something good can be design from it.

Any thought?

Both solutions are terrible.

Severe negative zeal penalty(even to the point where there would be 100% accuracy against blob from small arms) is the only way that might help here.

No faction is build or balanced around blobing, so there is minimal negative impact on gameplay other then terribads needing to learn to micro.

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So more the game last, more blobbing would cost in term of popcap. ...

How would this even work with factions that can skip tech?
Why would popcap influence blobbing... at all?

How would the 1st option ever influence blobbing when by the time you would need the current popcap you already got it anyways.

How would the 2nd option be ever a good idea, if teching up to counter blobbing also screws your popcap over?

Or as Katitof said: "both solutions are terrible"

How would this even work with factions that can skip tech?
Why would popcap influence blobbing... at all?

How would the 1st option ever influence blobbing when by the time you would need the current popcap you already got it anyways.

How would the 2nd option be ever a good idea, if teching up to counter blobbing also screws your popcap over?

Or as Katitof said: "both solutions are terrible"

Popcap reduces your MP income. More your popcap raises, more your MP income reduces. It is just a matter of upkeep in fact. If you make your basic units consuming more upkeep, making a lot of them will cost you more in term of manpower drain.

Remember there are 2 manpower drain in the game.
1-Building/reinforce cost
2-Upkeep

Its just a matter of balance between the 2 of them. If blobbing is so effective, it is primarily because it is cheaper to maintain than going combined arms (because combined arms suppose investing and using fuel). In Coh1, Riflesquads had a high ukpeek rate which make going more than 4 riflesquads really costly in term of upkeep and so reduce the blob capabilities for USF early game.

So the idea is to adapt it to Coh2, if in coh1, mp income was linked to territory, today its linked to popcap, lower the popcap is, higher your mp income is.
Blobbing is an early strategy that can survive late game, this is a second reason it works well for OKW, but less for Sov and USF, because you don't have the AT capability on your basic squads.
So my idea is simply to make blob less cost effective early game. Any average player can counter a blob early game, the problem becomes more evident at mid game when you try to diversify and the blobber just upgrade his blob. If diversifying cost less than maintaining a blob, people will simply abandon the idea because a couple of bad hits will put them too far behind in term of resource to comeback evidently in the game.

Katitof is wrong in his solution for one reason, nobody can clearly define what blob is. Applying a debuff is something I would like as well... only if you can define clearly how to apply it which is almost impossible.

wrong edit

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Its just a matter of balance between the 2 of them. If blobbing is so effective, it is primarily because it is cheaper to maintain than going combined arms (because combined arms suppose investing and using fuel)...
but less for Sov and USF...
Katitof is wrong in his solution for one reason, nobody can clearly define what blob is. Applying a debuff is something I would like as well...

If you increase popcap / upkeep for all units, why would that stop me from getting an Xth Gren squad instead of an MG42, and then run around blobbed with them?
If you just do it for certain units, do you really think players will not just spam & blob other units?

Your mechanic will at best only limit the quantity of a certain unit, not the blobbing itself.
With your suggestion 6 Rifles spread out properly would be a "blob", and 3 Volks + 3 Obers a-moving together not.

Btw. you got to be kidding me with SOV & USF not blobbing, especially this patch.

You could define a blob by area of effect. If two of my squads stand 15 meters apart, a mortar shell will never hurt them both at once, if they're close together they're "kinda blobbed" and get both some damage.
If i engage an ISG with 3 Rifles blobbed, in worst case they get insta suppressed by a hit, if i spread them out, they won't.

While i like Katitofs idea, i'm not really sure how that would work out either. I'd simply prefer a further buff of anti blob weaponary.

If you increase popcap / upkeep for all units, why would that stop me from getting an Xth Gren squad instead of an MG42, and then run around blobbed with them?

Nothing, it just adds a downside in your economy, You'll paid twice the price of your squad and slow down your economy.

If you just do it for certain units, do you really think players will not just spam & blob other units?

I let you spam and blob MG42 or snipers. Game mechanisms are already quite well done around them.

Your mechanic will at best only limit the quantity of a certain unit, not the blobbing itself.
With your suggestion 6 Rifles spread out properly would be a "blob", and 3 Volks + 3 Obers a-moving together not.

No, it doesn't, there is no limitation, just a new downside to early blob. You can spam and blob as much as volks/rifles/cons as you want after deploying your T3/T4. 3 volks + 3 obers works well when you don't need anything else than volks early game to maintain your field presence at low cost. Since it will not be the case anymore or at highest cost, or you'll have diversify your army and so have less need in your obers, or you'll blob as before but your obers will come later simply because you'll have less resource to invest in.
I do not want to remove Obers usage or volks/obers synergy, just put a downside if you fail to use it properly.

Btw. you got to be kidding me with SOV & USF not blobbing, especially this patch.

Never say not blobbing, I just say its effectiveness disappear faster than OKW blob. And the solution I propose is equal for any faction blobs.

You could define a blob by area of effect.

No you can't.
Because when I'm playing sittard summer and try to pass a bridge with more than 2 squads I'm not blobbing.
When I play semois and pass any narrow chock points in that map with more than 1 squad, I'm not blobbing.
When I play any map that have a edges and roads that make your squads stick together for a while before being able to spread them, I and neither you are blobbing. Especially on Stalingrad.
So I don't know why we should receive a penalty for that.

Only hardcounter-style solution to blobbing is to increase received accuracy/damage for blobbed units.

It's simple to understand, simple to implement and works across the board. Which probably explains why Lelic haven't done it.

Only hardcounter-style solution to blobbing is to increase received accuracy/damage for blobbed units.

It's simple to understand, simple to implement and works across the board. Which probably explains why Lelic haven't done it.

This would mostly hurt usf and okw. On most maps it´s inevitable that your infantry forms a "blob", making mortars the I-win-weaponcrew and it would promote defensive playing in a very undesireable way.

This would mostly hurt usf and okw. On most maps it´s inevitable that your infantry forms a "blob", making mortars the I-win-weaponcrew and it would promote defensive playing in a very undesireable way.

It's inevitable if you're a blobber. Otherwise, it isn't.

It's inevitable if you're a blobber. Otherwise, it isn't.

Well, there are chokepoints and areas of limited space where doesn´t matter if you´re a blobber or not, your infantry will move together...

It's inevitable if you're a blobber. Otherwise, it isn't.

Fix the fucking stupid clumsy maps before saying that.
i.e: Trois Pont

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No, it doesn't, there is no limitation, just a new downside to early blob. You can spam and blob as much as volks/rifles/cons as you want after deploying your T3/T4.

That is exactly what is happening right now.
The fancy Volks & Obers, or upped Rifles, or whatsoever, doesn't start like it, it just continues because it's easier to play like it, and not punished enough.

3 volks + 3 obers works well when you don't need anything else than volks early game to maintain your field presence at low cost.

Again, not even an early game mix.

...Never say not blobbing, I just say its effectiveness disappear faster than OKW blob. And the solution I propose is equal for any faction blobs...

You should maybe watch SPrice blob around Rifles. It's kinda digusting, but very effective from start to end.

Because when I'm playing sittard summer and try to pass a bridge with more than 2 squads I'm not blobbing.

It's not the "hurr durr blob of doom", it's just literally blobbing up units.
Maps are another issue of course, and Lyon Sittard summer is probably one of the worst - i veto'd it since day 1, before ever even playing it, guess why.




Anyways, your suggestion won't work. You screw over fun & casual meta, you screw over factions that have working horses, you force a techup for factions that don't need one necessarily and give advantages for factions that can skip tech easily.
The whole suggestion only might (!) limit spam, and in no way blobbing.


just my 2 cent, and please don't feel offended (which wasn't my intention).

You are not suggesting a blob solution, rather than making the game play with fewer units.

Only hardcounter-style solution to blobbing is to increase received accuracy/damage for blobbed units.

It's simple to understand, simple to implement and works across the board. Which probably explains why Lelic haven't done it.

Have you ever thought that your "simple and easy solution" was actually considered, but not implemented because of certain reasons you might not understand?

Have you ever thought that your "simple and easy solution" was actually considered, but not implemented because of certain reasons you might not understand?

I think if you want to participate in this discussion you should at least support your pseudoquestion with your own explanation of what you think is not right with the suggestion I made.

I think if you want to participate in this discussion you should at least support your pseudoquestion with your own explanation of what you think is not right with the suggestion I made.

Because you would need to change every map in the game to be much, much more open because units clump together in cover by design. Ever wonder why squad wipes are a lot more common then they used to be?

Because you would need to change every map in the game to be much, much more open because units clump together in cover by design. Ever wonder why squad wipes are a lot more common then they used to be?

This is a typical blobber's argument. I have no trouble keeping my units away from each other and in cover: it makes more sense to do so even in the current blob meta.

This is a typical blobber's argument. I have no trouble keeping my units away from each other and in cover: it makes more sense to do so even in the current blob meta.

You know when you move units around they path into cover by default right? There are bridges and hallways on several maps that prevent you from being able to keep your units far away from each other.

I'm all for more blob counters, but adding negative zeal isn't a counter.

That is exactly what is happening right now.
The fancy Volks & Obers, or upped Rifles, or whatsoever, doesn't start like it, it just continues because it's easier to play like it, and not punished enough.


Again, not even an early game mix.


You should maybe watch SPrice blob around Rifles. It's kinda digusting, but very effective from start to end.


It's not the "hurr durr blob of doom", it's just literally blobbing up units.
Maps are another issue of course, and Lyon Sittard summer is probably one of the worst - i veto'd it since day 1, before ever even playing it, guess why.




Anyways, your suggestion won't work. You screw over fun & casual meta, you screw over factions that have working horses, you force a techup for factions that don't need one necessarily and give advantages for factions that can skip tech easily.
The whole suggestion only might (!) limit spam, and in no way blobbing.


just my 2 cent, and please don't feel offended (which wasn't my intention).

My two cents is that you don't really understand the concept I exposed. This is sad

Let simply put the goals.
1- Early spam of basic squads = resource penalties + popcap penalty that can only be overcome by tiering. Longer you stay at T0 and spam basic squad highest is the impact on your economy.
Early spam of basic squads + call-ins meta aka I wait for my IS2/Tiger or whatever = punished because of the popcap and resource penalty.

This is simple, in term of economy, today going 6 basic units is cheaper than 4 + 1 light vehicle.
With this proposal, going 6 basic units will be equally or higher expensive than 4 + 1 light vehicle. Better if it is higher expensive imo.

Blob will still be possible but with a clear impact on your economy early/mid game. It will slow your blob and starve your mp income.
Why not late game? Because late game is late game I want to say, and if your opponent hasn't take the advantage to punish you, there is not reason to still be resource starved.

If I come back to the volks + obers example. Why obers are so powerful in this format (except from obers itself)?
Because volks are cheap
Because volks are numerous

If you make volks not cheap when numerous until late game, you just break the blob dynamic. Same goes with any blob format like CptPrice and his zook blob. because he'll have to invest in something else that don't break his economy. A blob will be simply to expensive to be maintain.


Why and why not debuff blobs? Because you cannot, and bear in mind that all of us would like it if it was possible, you cannot define what a blob is.
Why? Because blob is a concept, there not one definition of what is a blob. Anybody here has his own definition.
The idea of applying a debuff for blobbing, I had it years ago, I had it in coh1 when I started facing piospam strat. And since this time, I have think a lot about how to debuff it and came to the conclusion you cannot simply create a rule that will only affect real-true blobbers, it is simply impossible.
But you can restrict resources and play with upkeep and popcap.