Well in this engagement Allied rifles are in close range not in mid range which favors them.
PG are favoured at mid range.
Panzergrenadiers underperforming (with video proof)
7 Apr 2015, 19:55 PM
#21
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
PG are favoured at mid range.
My controls weren't working
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And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
7 Apr 2015, 20:03 PM
#22
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
PG are favoured at mid range.
Yep, by 15 DPS at range 19 (actual comparison: PG's DPS will be 2.25 that of Rifle's) and the superior received accuracy also helping greatly.
7 Apr 2015, 21:21 PM
#23
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Panzergrenadiers are legit units. I don't know why so many people write them off as useless without shreks. I use Pgrens every time I play Ostheer and they never let me down. Though admittedly I did struggle with them at first until I realized that you do not need to cross the distance between mid and close range to out-DPS conscripts and riflemen. It is the crossing of this distance that gives bad results because you won't do much DPS on the move and you'll likely lose a squad member in the process. Just moving into cover at mid range (or slightly closer) and letting them rip is enough to win engagements (with taking casualties), but they really start to shine when you can use them in flanking maneuvers.
7 Apr 2015, 21:25 PM
#24
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
Panzergrenadiers are legit units. I don't know why so many people write them off as useless without shreks. I use Pgrens every time I play Ostheer and they never let me down. Though admittedly I did struggle with them at first until I realized that you do not need to cross the distance between mid and close range to out-DPS conscripts and riflemen. It is the crossing of this distance that gives bad results because you won't do much DPS on the move and you'll likely lose a squad member in the process. Just moving into cover at mid range (or slightly closer) and letting them rip is enough to win engagements (with taking casualties), but they really start to shine when you can use them in flanking maneuvers.
I sometimes wonder if vet 2 rifle grenades are making them look bad too.
Why flank when you can just blow a squad up from the fog of war instead?
7 Apr 2015, 21:37 PM
#25
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
Panzergrenadiers are legit units. I don't know why so many people write them off as useless without shreks. I use Pgrens every time I play Ostheer and they never let me down. Though admittedly I did struggle with them at first until I realized that you do not need to cross the distance between mid and close range to out-DPS conscripts and riflemen. It is the crossing of this distance that gives bad results because you won't do much DPS on the move and you'll likely lose a squad member in the process. Just moving into cover at mid range (or slightly closer) and letting them rip is enough to win engagements (with taking casualties), but they really start to shine when you can use them in flanking maneuvers.
It's not that Pgrens minus the shrek are bad, it's just that they are expensive for a faction that isn't exactly drowning in MP. I find them best for just scaring off BAR spammed and shocks, but they don't do well at all V Para or 1919 spam.
Grens with LMG are a cheaper alternative.
7 Apr 2015, 21:57 PM
#26
Posts: 542
Panzergrenadiers are legit units. I don't know why so many people write them off as useless without shreks. I use Pgrens every time I play Ostheer and they never let me down. Though admittedly I did struggle with them at first until I realized that you do not need to cross the distance between mid and close range to out-DPS conscripts and riflemen. It is the crossing of this distance that gives bad results because you won't do much DPS on the move and you'll likely lose a squad member in the process. Just moving into cover at mid range (or slightly closer) and letting them rip is enough to win engagements (with taking casualties), but they really start to shine when you can use them in flanking maneuvers.
They are fine in certain situations. They defend well when the enemy is coming to them, or when you can get to the enemy without taking damage on the way (like around corner flanks or something), but they are too squishy and expensive to just go attack with them on long range units. So they are more like a nice addition than a core infantry unit usually.
7 Apr 2015, 22:18 PM
#27
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
They are fine in certain situations. They defend well when the enemy is coming to them, or when you can get to the enemy without taking damage on the way (like around corner flanks or something), but they are too squishy and expensive to just go attack with them on long range units. So they are more like a nice addition than a core infantry unit usually.
Well, that's pretty much the point of this unit. Wehrmacht has the unique luxury of having non-doctrinal long range LMGs on their core infantry, so there is little point in getting mid/short-range units when you are fighting on a large open map. However, in more cluttered spaces like the center and east sides of La Gleize Outbreak, having a panzergrenadier unit or two increases your offensive potential by miles.
7 Apr 2015, 23:19 PM
#28
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
Doesn't really prove anything. The american players micro was as bad as it can get and the Wehrmacht player had the best possible position.
8 Apr 2015, 01:19 AM
#29
Posts: 612
It's not that Pgrens minus the shrek are bad, it's just that they are expensive for a faction that isn't exactly drowning in MP. I find them best for just scaring off BAR spammed and shocks, but they don't do well at all V Para or 1919 spam.
Grens with LMG are a cheaper alternative.
That might be true, but they are probably the best weapons team defenders and flankers. Soviets wont be able to oorah in and flank without tremendous loss. Now they are suffering a bit with the new Guards, but they still do quite amazing at medium range.
I think the reason people find this unit underwhelming is because they are in between to polar ends players see. They either see long range infantry with lmgs ravage in cover or the opposite, shocks and penals whom destroy at short range.
As it is, they are a challenging but highly rewarding unit whom can be upgraded to deal with tanks.
They are also the best mobile defending unit if you use them with the halftrack (which I've only come a crossed a few 1v1 players who do)
8 Apr 2015, 02:40 AM
#30
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
That might be true, but they are probably the best weapons team defenders and flankers. Soviets wont be able to oorah in and flank without tremendous loss. Now they are suffering a bit with the new Guards, but they still do quite amazing at medium range.
I think the reason people find this unit underwhelming is because they are in between to polar ends players see. They either see long range infantry with lmgs ravage in cover or the opposite, shocks and penals whom destroy at short range.
As it is, they are a challenging but highly rewarding unit whom can be upgraded to deal with tanks.
They are also the best mobile defending unit if you use them with the halftrack (which I've only come a crossed a few 1v1 players who do)
You do highlight a common issue that engagements only really happen any more at either buff sniffing range or max range thanks to there being very few "medium range" only units. No (smart) player will ever sprint into your Pgrens, they will just hang out and range and take them down.
If I was to rework Pgrens instead of reducing the cost, I would increase their long range DPS or give them some armor like shocks so they can close the distance to be effective.
Still doesn't really fix how underwhelming they are with shreks though, 120 munitions for a super easy to one shot squad, I normally only find myself getting shreks when I'm going a fuel to muni conversion doc or Luft supply.
8 Apr 2015, 04:45 AM
#31
Posts: 612
You do highlight a common issue that engagements only really happen any more at either buff sniffing range or max range thanks to there being very few "medium range" only units. No (smart) player will ever sprint into your Pgrens, they will just hang out and range and take them down.
If I was to rework Pgrens instead of reducing the cost, I would increase their long range DPS or give them some armor like shocks so they can close the distance to be effective.
Still doesn't really fix how underwhelming they are with shreks though, 120 munitions for a super easy to one shot squad, I normally only find myself getting shreks when I'm going a fuel to muni conversion doc or Luft supply.
Well if the close ranged units are not running into close range, thats kind of a victory for the grens and mg42s.
While on the other hand they do great at slaughtering weapons teams if given a chance.
Personally I think its a preference of use, and because they are not a one directional unit people dont like them
8 Apr 2015, 06:16 AM
#32
1 Posts: 927
Pgrens dps is not even that impressive it is nothing like a flanking shock troop squad, its alright as long you got 4 man but pgrens lose a model just by looking at them.
8 Apr 2015, 06:26 AM
#33
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
Cover is directional. Nothing more to say.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
8 Apr 2015, 11:20 AM
#34
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
I can confirm how PzGrens are UP 
8 Apr 2015, 11:50 AM
#35
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
For lazy ones:
8 Apr 2015, 13:04 PM
#36
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
For lazy ones:
Are you gonna show me only retarded videos today guys? What ladder place were those outstanding players that manned the riflemen (first vid) and cons (second vid)? Please don't serve this kind of shit to me today, the engagement mistakes were quite obvious.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
8 Apr 2015, 13:09 PM
#37
Posts: 521
PzGrenadiers are beasts. Their only problem is that you have to get Grenadiers before you get them as you can't do a T2 start, and that moves them from alternative great early elite infantry that wreck everyone from cover to situational elite infantry or Panzerschreck carriers.
Oh and that their G43 upgrade is a waste of a squad and also a munitions sink.
Oh and that their G43 upgrade is a waste of a squad and also a munitions sink.
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8 Apr 2015, 13:24 PM
#38
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Are you gonna show me only retarded videos today guys? What ladder place were those outstanding players that manned the riflemen (first vid) and cons (second vid)? Please don't serve this kind of shit to me today, the engagement mistakes were quite obvious.
I'm not sure what else you want to see? Should 1 pgren squad be able to take out 2 conscript squads and 2/3rd of a guard squad when the soviet player micros well?
8 Apr 2015, 13:32 PM
#39
Posts: 1637
I'm not sure what else you want to see? Should 1 pgren squad be able to take out 2 conscript squads and 2/3rd of a guard squad when the soviet player micros well?
Pretty much this. Using Pgrens well means they perform well. Eliminate their weakness and emphasize their strength. When I run into a good Ost Player in 1v1 this is how they use Pgrens. Always in cover and at Mid range. If they are in Green Cover and Rifles arent they will beat rifles even at long range. Even with Dual BARs. And this level of AI is base without investment other than MP. That is not a bad unit. Its just not an Amove unit.
Not seeing the Pgren problem honestly (other then the typical four man whipe problems that Gren suffers as well)
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
8 Apr 2015, 13:34 PM
#40
Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1
I'm not sure what else you want to see? Should 1 pgren squad be able to take out 2 conscript squads and 2/3rd of a guard squad when the soviet player micros well?
That's not the point. A units efficiency is judge by their performance in logical and skilful engagements. In this particular video, Pzgrens are in Green cover (3 of them are, the 4th one is in the back and is not being shot at), they are in their favored damage output distance, and more importantly the other player is not doing very well. Guards are zombies, and die. Then Cons come in for the save and guess what? Instead of focusing fire on Pzgrens or throwing a molotov or getting in cover, he mans the mortar.
My own problem with Pzgrens is their expensive reinforcement cost. Their damage and HP is fine I guess, they are just very hard to maintain.
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