CAS needs adjusted

The three issue I believe are:

You can't kill the plane before it unloads it payload on its targets.

Infantry Stafe's AOE is too much, impossible and rarely dodged. Needs to be like VCOHs airborne strafe were you can dodge it.

Fuel conversion to munitions is not used for just call-ins but for LMG Gren Spam with PG Shreks horde. This just encourages Attack Move blobs.

The Stuka, and AT-Strafe are dodge-able and not a problem just requires being alert and always moving units the minute you see the recon plane or any LOS by the opponent on your units.

Its dealing with the horde of infantry where it gets stupid. The blob of grens overruns your regular infantry, rifle grenades wipe mgs while the shreked PGs kill off any vehicles that attempt to support or kite. If the blob can't make head way infantry strafe is called in creating the conditions for them to advance.

Edit* You know what that looks like Obers with Shreks Volks running rampant pre-patach?

The only hope is that you invest in units that can help squad wipe ie Demos, Scotts, Katty, or Priests any other indirect weapons will get killed with AT Strafe or Stuka + Recon flight. This will bleed the OST player and keep them hopefully from teching to T4 and rolling you up.

Then don't ask a question if you don't want an answer. Toning down whipes by nerfing said whipey units is the name of this game. ISU, Scott, IS2 the list goes on and on. The same argument to not nerf those units was made. I mean why nerf the B4? Precision strike cost a lot of muni. CAS hard countered it and it's expensive. Anything that causes whipes with little effort are frowned upon. The same level of players that don't have a problem with CAS also didn't struggle against the B4.

See how that works both ways?

Check the ladders. You'll have your answer there. There's OKW members on the top 10 teams for either factions. Also I don' see you in any top 75 teams on the ladders.

So you're frustrated by CAS? You know that's completely understandable, people get frustrated, and well they have to deal with it. But that does not warrant CAS being nerfed. This thread has nothing to do with balance, it belongs in the strategy sub-forum.

Lastly, try to play the argument, not the man, ad hominem attacks won't make your case.

i change my name pretty frequently. check my playercard link.

sorry if i offended you, but your post offended me because it was branded wrongly. but i shouldnt have offended you anyway.

the reason why i am frustrated by CAS in 2v2+ has a lot to do with a lot.

1. single passes basically do not have a counter (except dodging). no AA unit can even remotely reliably counter it. so the single passes are basically glorified arty call in. but with kamikaze possibilities. using that logic, lets compare it to other call in arties. obviously, if you disagree with me here, there is no real reason to read further.

light artillery barrage is weak but come down quick due to its weak damage. railway strike, while doing absolutely mental amount of damage, comes down much slower because of that. no such logic with single passes. again, that should be fine if there is another factor that plays into countering these abilities.

so to me, this it's dodgeable counter argument doesnt really carry any weight. the question rather should be: just because allied player was inattentive for 2-4 sec, does he deserve to lose 640hp tank almost always? is single pass inf insta pin fair?

i don't think it is but thats just me.

i'm too lazy to write more.

lol, they're not dogeable. they'll miss if you place them badly or the enemy accidentally move but otherwise they always hit.

lol, they're not dogeable. they'll miss if you place them badly or the enemy accidentally move but otherwise they always hit.

Its hard to take a balance discussion of CAS seriously when stuff like this is being said.

1. single passes basically do not have a counter (except dodging). no AA unit can even remotely reliably counter it. so the single passes are basically glorified arty call in. but with kamikaze possibilities. using that logic, lets compare it to other call in arties. obviously, if you disagree with me here, there is no real reason to read further.

Then lets push for AA buffs and remove that RNG aspect of crashing planes? add a 1s delay to the strikes and call it a day.

For me, this is the most disgusting commander in the game. It's everything that the CoH series shouldn't be.

IMO this should have been a Soviet doctrine. Or even USF, if you're willing to stretch historical accuracy THAT far.

the reason why i am frustrated by CAS in 2v2+ has a lot to do with a lot.

1. single passes basically do not have a counter (except dodging). no AA unit can even remotely reliably counter it. so the single passes are basically glorified arty call in. but with kamikaze possibilities. using that logic, lets compare it to other call in arties. obviously, if you disagree with me here, there is no real reason to read further.

light artillery barrage is weak but come down quick due to its weak damage. railway strike, while doing absolutely mental amount of damage, comes down much slower because of that. no such logic with single passes. again, that should be fine if there is another factor that plays into countering these abilities.

so to me, this it's dodgeable counter argument doesnt really carry any weight. the question rather should be: just because allied player was inattentive for 2-4 sec, does he deserve to lose 640hp tank almost always? is single pass inf insta pin fair?

i don't think it is but thats just me.

I agree, when I first say CAS I was like pfft single strafe? No thanks, I'll save muni for something better. Then it turns out that for that amount of munitions (coupled with the INSTANT fuel conversion), plus much harder to dodge plane strikes, the effects are even better than loitering, which effectively cancels out the ability, at least for a while.
If it were up to me, the airstrikes should be more like short artillery support abilities. Imagine it this way, a Soviet doctrine utilizing the same abilities: a single but quick and immediate Fear Propaganda arty strike, or an off-map precision strike, we'd all agree that's near if not total BS.
It's dodgeable yes, but dodgeable in the sense that you can also dodge a hail of machine gun fire as long as you're 100 metres away. Good luck.

Then lets push for AA buffs and remove that RNG aspect of crashing planes? add a 1s delay to the strikes and call it a day.

I'm gonna copy my post that seems it didn't led to any discussion.

Solution: change how it approaches the battlefield while mantaining the timing of unloading it's payload.

1-Make the plane arrive from the opposite direction you want it to cast the strafe*.
----This makes the plane be counterable.
----It makes plane crashes not be only for the victim of the strafe
2-The plane then makes a U turn and strafes.
3-To account for the longer exposing time some changes have to be done so the time of attack remains practically the same.
----Plane arrives inmediatly after casting the ability
----Flares are delayed a bit
----Speed of plane might need to be increased


*Not neccesarily 180°.

Option number 2:

Call the plane into the battlefield and it starts to loiter around. You have X seconds after the plane arrives to order an attack route.

i change my name pretty frequently. check my playercard link.

sorry if i offended you, but your post offended me because it was branded wrongly. but i shouldnt have offended you anyway.

the reason why i am frustrated by CAS in 2v2+ has a lot to do with a lot.

1. single passes basically do not have a counter (except dodging). no AA unit can even remotely reliably counter it. so the single passes are basically glorified arty call in. but with kamikaze possibilities. using that logic, lets compare it to other call in arties. obviously, if you disagree with me here, there is no real reason to read further.

light artillery barrage is weak but come down quick due to its weak damage. railway strike, while doing absolutely mental amount of damage, comes down much slower because of that. no such logic with single passes. again, that should be fine if there is another factor that plays into countering these abilities.

so to me, this it's dodgeable counter argument doesnt really carry any weight. the question rather should be: just because allied player was inattentive for 2-4 sec, does he deserve to lose 640hp tank almost always? is single pass inf insta pin fair?

i don't think it is but thats just me.

i'm too lazy to write more.

Their is merit to some points you raised. And I agree with the following one.

Single passes don't have a reliable counter, as in something that nullifies the strafe pre-emptively. Most of the times, when the plane is shot down is after successfully conducting a strafe. The only times I've seen a single pass plane shot down before delivering its payload is with the USF AA halfrack on AA mode. Thing is said unit is inconsistent, as it is incapable of 360° fire. In order to shoot down the plane it needs to be set up, and be facing the incoming plane, which is a coin toss, if it happens to be facing the direction of the incoming plane, it will shoot it down instantly once spotted.

That's why I said in my first post on this thread, that a valid approach is to buff the Allies abysmal AA capabilities.

What I don't agree with is some people on this thread using CAS as a scapegoat for other issues that are either inherent to the meta, or the design. Plane crashes, redistribute ressources, blobbing meta, using munitions for shrecks or lmgs etc...

so to me, this it's dodgeable counter argument doesnt really carry any weight. the question rather should be: just because allied player was inattentive for 2-4 sec, does he deserve to lose 640hp tank almost always?

Can't agree with this one, when I suffer a tank or mobile arty loss, yeah it pisses me off, but hey, It was my fault. There was smoke and a brief window for me to react, if he used the recon pass or his OKW teammate flares that's a tell too. Units such as the B4 or ISU-152 don't give you a fair warning before their shell lands and wipe your squads, but once aware of their presence you must hunt them down and eliminate them, that is why there's no visual warning, because you can destroy them. It's improbable to shoot down the planes during a single pass, that's why you get a visual warning plus flight time. If I lose a damaged panzer near an OKW repair truck to a B4 round knowing an allied player went counter-attack, it's my own fault for being inattentive.

is single pass inf insta pin fair?

Yes. It should only catch a single squad, maybe two if they're quite close to each other. if it catches your whole blob, well that's on you.

IMHO this can go two ways.

Buffing the AA counters should make this situation fairer. As the CAS player is investing 60 or 110 muntions on a strafe, that strafe can either miss (opposing player dodged it, or CAS player timed the strafe poorly), or fail (due to the plane being shot down) resulting in the CAS player wasting munitions to 0 effect. This gives the allied player a chance to deal with CAS with skill, by either dodging or buying the appropriate counters. I prefer this solution.

Or, nerfing the strafes. And you end up with the AT strafe significantly weaker, emulating light artillery barrage, thus meant only to soften targets.

The pin strafe AOE reduced, meaning it will miss very often; or reducing the suppression from the anti infantry strafe meaning it would only suppress and not pin. This would result in a neutered CAS, the commander falling out of favour. Might as well remove the doctrine from the game at that point.

Its hard to take a balance discussion of CAS seriously when stuff like this is being said.

you have about 2 seconds after the flares land to dodge the suppression strafe; infantry don't move fast enough to get out.

the AT strafe is actually sort of dodgeable, but only by guessing at the direction he's firing and moving perpendicular to that. if he's smart he'll try to second guess you and will hit anyway.

I really think giving the axis a x amount of planes available for call in and every time a plane gets shot down so does the number of available planes which increases cooldown and at a certain point deny them air support.

Countering CAS in 1v1 or 2v2s it's an L2P issue as it was said before. Never used it in 3v3 but I can't imagine why it's so "OP" on 3v3 or higher.
First, this doctrine works best on narrow / small / medium maps. Why? Because used properly and according to its purpose, you will build almost only infantry, and we're talking about Ostheer. Which means no forward retreat point, so you are allways in danger to lose positions/territory after general retreats. That's a weakness. You can't be to responsive in supporting your partner with troops because you are not so mobile (lack of / to few vehicles). The air strikes need thinking and positioning because they are not like in other dotrines. They are maybe cheaper but need control when called. The most powerfull of them will be available just in late game.
One of them is countering blobs. Is that a bad thing? Or the only ones that should be alowed to blob are the Allied? You don't want your blob get pinned by an air strike? Split it, and you will still have infantry on the field.

So, coming back to the long ostheer infantry walks around the map which are a disadvantage starting from 2v2, I can't realy understand why this CAS is a problem for 3v3s or 4v4s. With what can you support your mates besides air stikes? All of them dodgeable? If I can't reach a point with my ground units when needed, I might as well not reaching it at all.

I don't think CAS is OP. It has its downsides while offering to player a very different and imaginative playstyle.

Countering CAS in 1v1 or 2v2s it's an L2P issue

Plz enlighten me oh great master

How do i dodge a strafe coming from the edge of the map?

Spread infantry? PLEASE

Dont make me show u a replay where its AOE is greater than u think it is...

As for heavy tanks doing the AT strafe.. It is literately impossible, good luck getting an ISU or IS2 out of its strafe.

As for usf vehicles. It kills all in one pass except sherman, new m10, and bulldozer sherman. Again from the edge of the map. is certain death.

Come on boys! it's time to start a new thread and cry/beg for another Axis unit/ability to be nerfed!

How about the Wehrmacht sniper?!! yea that's a good idea, someone start a new thread, please. Wehrmacht sniper is OP and needs to be nerfed!! lol

Plz enlighten me oh great master

How do i dodge a strafe coming from the edge of the map?

Spread infantry? PLEASE

Dont make me show u a replay where its AOE is greater than u think it is...

As for heavy tanks doing the AT strafe.. It is literately impossible, good luck getting an ISU or IS2 out of its strafe.

As for usf vehicles. It kills all in one pass except sherman, new m10, and bulldozer sherman. Again from the edge of the map. is certain death.

I answered to what you were laughing about. Dodging offmaps it's another thing and it can be done in 2 ways: prevention and reaction. Study these words and see what you can understand from them (if anything at all).
Your soviet heavies are having problems with AT strafe? WHy, because it takes maybe 30% of their health? Yep, that's a problem allright. Sorry you cannot steamroll everything with your IS2s and remain untouched. You should try a little the Fat Panzer IV aka Tiger and see how it feels these days, then comeback to your beloved IS2 and feel gratefull.

Reduce AOE output, and reduce damage of the AT strafe. Increase cool down on the fuel transfer and possible decrease the resource conversion.

Adjust AA so it can shoot at planes around the map, currently the USF HT cant shoot due to shot blockers making countering hard.

Increase Cool downs across the board or adjust their output

People crying about PTRS while defending this no skill plane spam? LOL. It is a wash right guys?

People crying about PTRS while defending this no skill plane spam? LOL. It is a wash right guys?

From a heavy allies player standpoint, PTRS could use adjustment for the cons squad but not for the gaurds.

Plz stay on topic and talk about CAS balance or ways to make it counterable instead of bringing in another topic