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russian armor

Zis Guns and Pak 40s

30 Mar 2015, 01:14 AM
#1
avatar of woolypeanut

Posts: 14

So based on performance there are some factors that need to be taken into account when comparing Zis Guns and Pak 40s.

For TL:DR skip to the BALANCING PROBLEM section...

Both of these AT guns perform very consistently against light vehicles and medium armour, the Pak very occasionally bounces T-34s but they have slopped armour so this can be deemed reasonable. If the Zis can bounce Pz4s I have not yet seen it happen in my 263 hours played but this isn't an issue.

FOR REFERENCE:

Against heavy armour there are some serious problems.
The Pak 40 statistically had 132mm of penetration at a 90 degree angle at 500 metres, so had to be far closer to penetrate IS-2 frontal armour. From a balance point of view it's very reasonable that a basic AT gun isn't likely to penetrate the frontal armour of a heavy tank. The pak doesn't have any issues with the KV series and performs fairly. When not comparing the Pak to the Zis, there are no issues.

The Soviet Zis gun, on the other hand, barely bounces when firing upon a tigers frontal armour, that's 100mm at a 90 degree angle. The Zis gun could not touch a tigers frontal armour unless it managed to strike a critical point like a vision port, so by that logic a Zis gun should not penetrate the tiger from the front most of the time. Zis guns only had 82mm of perpendicular penetration even at 100m.

Don't even get me started on the panther, 140mm (effective) sloped armour, Zis guns still seem to bounce very infrequently.
Then to make things even worse there's the elefant, 200mm of armour (even though not sloped). Zis Guns are a serious threat to even these beasts from the front.


BALANCING PROBLEM:

Now real life aside, it should be obvious what the issue is here. Zis guns effectively out perform Pak 40s simply because they actually hurt heavy tanks which they fire at. The Pak is regarded as the best AT gun in the game and while it does have the stun, in every other respect the Zis is just better

Pak40:
4 man crew
pens all tanks consistently excluding IS-2 and ISU (which it is useless against when firing at frontal armour)
stun ability

Zis Gun:
6 man crew, very good survivability vs mortars and grenades
Only has issues with the king tiger, it's a king tiger after all.

Based on the fact that Zis Guns can shut down panthers tigers and even elefants (although not so much elefants because you can sit outside Zis Gun range) while IS-2s will sit there bouncing consecutive frontal hits, the Zis gun is actually the better of the two AT guns.

The IS-2s armour could be considered the problem however it is a heavy tank and it;s fair enough that AT guns should have trouble, but this should be universal! The Zis gun does not deserve it's crazy effectiveness and superior usefulness over the Pak 40. The soviets have a tank destroyer option with an 85mm gun which they should be forced to rely on for dealing with heavier tanks as 2 AT guns should not be an immediate pain in the arse for german heavy armour, especially considering the soviets DO have other options which are redundant because the Zis gun's crazy goodness.
The Germans on the other hand, rely completely on the Pak 40 for long ranged AT support (unless elefant), while panzershreks are a decent supplement AT tool they still have issues with heavy armour and are not really worth the cost on pgrens, not to mention they really don't operate like tanks destroyers, more like glorified AT guns.

This issue really needs a fix, especially because of the poor neglected SU-85...
30 Mar 2015, 01:19 AM
#2
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

This is a troll thread, I feel like killing my self for reading this
30 Mar 2015, 01:24 AM
#3
avatar of boc120

Posts: 245

Yeah, troll better.
30 Mar 2015, 01:26 AM
#4
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

This is a troll thread, I feel like killing my self for reading this

Well, I wouldn't go that far...but yeah, the thread apparently believes only IS-2 exists for Soviets in addition to Tigers and Panthers get killed by ZiS-3s nearly instantly and Panthers don't out-range IS-2s.
30 Mar 2015, 01:30 AM
#5
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

disagree here. which part? all the parts.
30 Mar 2015, 02:10 AM
#6
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4

Stealing a pak is an axis players worst nightmare
30 Mar 2015, 02:16 AM
#7
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Stealing a pak is an axis players worst nightmare

And when it enters the dreams of Allies players, they wake up with sticky pants.
30 Mar 2015, 02:35 AM
#8
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

It's funny because he's 100% right about the Ostheer not having a dedicated tank destoryer.
30 Mar 2015, 02:41 AM
#9
avatar of woolypeanut

Posts: 14

Intelligent/productive replies would be far more preferable to mindless comments :o) Honestly if you think this is a troll thread you're pretty stupid considering there is obviously solid basis behind this, I wouldn't waste time on it otherwise. I am curious to hear feedback as to whether this is actually even the problem or if I've taken the wrong approach, perhaps tiger have an armour value bug or something which means they don't bounce hits, I dunno?
30 Mar 2015, 02:43 AM
#10
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15

30 Mar 2015, 02:52 AM
#11
avatar of FappingFrog

Posts: 135

this thread gave me a good laugh
30 Mar 2015, 03:01 AM
#12
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
TOP KEK
30 Mar 2015, 03:14 AM
#13
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



pic is broken
30 Mar 2015, 03:15 AM
#14
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

Intelligent/productive replies would be far more preferable to mindless comments :o) Honestly if you think this is a troll thread you're pretty stupid considering there is obviously solid basis behind this, I wouldn't waste time on it otherwise. I am curious to hear feedback as to whether this is actually even the problem or if I've taken the wrong approach, perhaps tiger have an armour value bug or something which means they don't bounce hits, I dunno?


The pak has armor penetration 210/200/190.
The Zis has armor penetration 200/190/180.

All soviet tanks have less armor than their equivalent axis tank except for the IS-2. The Zis bounces shots much more on everything.

Basically everything you are saying is wrong.
30 Mar 2015, 03:24 AM
#15
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15



pic is broken


only on mobile,MVForum
30 Mar 2015, 03:26 AM
#16
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

Intelligent/productive replies would be far more preferable to mindless comments :o) Honestly if you think this is a troll thread you're pretty stupid considering there is obviously solid basis behind this, I wouldn't waste time on it otherwise. I am curious to hear feedback as to whether this is actually even the problem or if I've taken the wrong approach, perhaps tiger have an armour value bug or something which means they don't bounce hits, I dunno?


Pak40:
4 man crew
pens all tanks consistently excluding IS-2 and ISU (which it is useless against when firing at frontal armour)
stun ability

Zis Gun:
6 man crew, very good survivability vs mortars and grenades
Only has issues with the king tiger, it's a king tiger after all.


why did you not mention ROF?

Based on the fact that Zis Guns can shut down panthers tigers and even elefants (although not so much elefants because you can sit outside Zis Gun range) while IS-2s will sit there bouncing consecutive frontal hits, the Zis gun is actually the better of the two AT guns.


zis has less chance of penning elefants than pak penning is2. how can anyone take this thread not as a troll thread?

edit: damn it, i fell into the trap....
30 Mar 2015, 03:55 AM
#17
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



only on mobile,MVForum


im on chrome(desktop) and cant see it
30 Mar 2015, 04:13 AM
#18
avatar of woolypeanut

Posts: 14

finally, thankyou someone for providing the information I want via stats.
I must just be incredibly unlucky, I've had disgusting luck with Pak guns vs IS-2s and also some unfortunate experiences with the tigers main gun bouncing frequently, I can upload a replay if people really want but it doesn't seem necessary.

It seems like the tiger being shit is more of a problem, really though as if that thing doesn't under perform... Doesn't help that I had a game where a several Zis literally did not fail to pen my panther a single time (frontal hits mostly). I'll ask about stats next time.
30 Mar 2015, 04:21 AM
#19
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300

finally, thankyou someone for providing the information I want via stats.
I must just be incredibly unlucky, I've had disgusting luck with Pak guns vs IS-2s and also some unfortunate experiences with the tigers main gun bouncing frequently, I can upload a replay if people really want but it doesn't seem necessary.

It seems like the tiger being shit is more of a problem, really though as if that thing doesn't under perform... Doesn't help that I had a game where a several Zis literally did not fail to pen my panther a single time (frontal hits mostly). I'll ask about stats next time.



ummm how exactly is the Tiger I crap again?
30 Mar 2015, 04:43 AM
#20
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

i like Zis and I will steal it all the time when i play german to use it to kill ally weapon teams. Yes I steal it not for its AT power but its power to kill enemy weapon team. for AT i trust my Pak 40 more than my panther
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