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MGs are not supposed to kill?

28 Mar 2015, 15:11 PM
#21
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

It's fun to catch a noob with his light vehicle not paying attention to incendiary rounds but at higher skill levels, that ability just doesn't pay off vs vehicles. It would be better for Ostheer if they could use the burning bullets later during bigger engagements vs shocks and so on and got better suppression earlier. It has a slightly better than marginal effect vs troops and at max range I don't think it does much.

That reminds me, I feel like HMG42s should have an indicator on the squad they're using incendiary AP ammo in addition to letting the buff stay on them despite packing up. Counting the Shocks and the smoke grenades that could be throw at you and correspondingly holding back on incendiary AP until you've seen them all was pretty feasible against the Soviets...against the Americans, it's kinda impossible with the metric shitton of smoke options they have (Riflemen, Lieutenant, many vehicles including M20, Scott, Sherman...). So I'd think if you manage to micro your HMG42s past all those smokes and keep it on the field firing, you should have the chance to use incendiary AP without waiting for ALL OF THE SMOKE to drop, especially since you've apparently kept it alive through a reload timer in combat.
28 Mar 2015, 16:48 PM
#22
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

I really like CieZ idea about getting Vet from suppression. Barring that not being possible lower their XP pool ALOT. I never understood why that isnt a thing. A Carte Blanche XP pool based off of cost makes all kinds of things harder to vet.

28 Mar 2015, 16:50 PM
#23
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

My main point was that they get less accurate and powerful over range as opposed to handheld MGs. You'd think a tripod mounted MG wouldn't scale so poorly at the longer ranges, and this there really a good reason they should suffer so much at long range?
28 Mar 2015, 17:01 PM
#24
avatar of ATCF
Donator 33

Posts: 587

Coh 2 beta maxim had 16dmg per bullet and it killed 1 gren model from the gren squad before they got suppressed, do we really want to go back to that?, (axis infantry had 1.5 armor back then so it kinda balanced it out)
28 Mar 2015, 17:08 PM
#25
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

hey MG42 is quite deadly at close range
28 Mar 2015, 17:10 PM
#26
avatar of ATCF
Donator 33

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2015, 17:08 PMNinjaWJ
hey MG42 is quite deadly at close range
so are the handgrenades and molotovs :(
28 Mar 2015, 18:36 PM
#27
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2015, 10:17 AMKatitof
If MGs were supposed to be killers, suppression wouldn't have added defensive modifiers for some time.


If the SU-76 was supposed to not be shit, Relic would have made it not shit. See how this line of argument works?
28 Mar 2015, 18:59 PM
#28
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2015, 17:10 PMATCF
so are the handgrenades and molotovs :(


Touche.
28 Mar 2015, 19:07 PM
#29
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2015, 17:10 PMATCF
so are the handgrenades and molotovs :(

Pffffff, barely.

Though the barely part definitely applies to "when against HMGs".
28 Mar 2015, 19:33 PM
#30
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



If the SU-76 was supposed to not be shit, Relic would have made it not shit. See how this line of argument works?


Since I know you're a little*... mentally incapacitated I will try to make it as simple as it can possibly be so even you may have a solid chance at comprehension:

Balance is not the same as game mechanic just like apples are not oranges.
Bad balance can be a source of bad mechanic, but not the other way around.
Comparing or even using that as analogy is simply stupid.

















*vast understatement
28 Mar 2015, 19:42 PM
#31
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

Euh.... are you sure to want that? I mean, Axis squads are shorter than Allied one. Only having the MG42 in mind to propose that change is a bit silly. If any HMG is going to kill faster, any 4men squads is going to have hard moments.
I guess it would also buff half-tracks and make them killing machines. Not sure if Ostheer would be that buffed with this change.
28 Mar 2015, 19:47 PM
#32
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1162

Yes but if you put your mg at point blank range on blind corners, squads walk right into it and get a lot of damage and fast suppression before the owning player has much time to react with a nade.
28 Mar 2015, 19:49 PM
#33
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2015, 19:42 PMEsxile
I guess it would also buff half-tracks and make them killing machines. Not sure if Ostheer would be that buffed with this change.

Probably would be, 251 is about the only reinforcing HT anyone might actually get these days considering Soviets' one is in T3 and the 'Muricans is made of especially brittle glass.

With that, the Prosttruppen would advance even faster!
28 Mar 2015, 19:53 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Yes but if you put your mg at point blank range on blind corners, squads walk right into it and get a lot of damage and fast suppression before the owning player has much time to react with a nade.

Unrealistic scenarios do not really help your case at all.

Not even a noob will put the MG in a spot where something can jump on it from right around the corner.
28 Mar 2015, 19:59 PM
#35
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2015, 19:33 PMKatitof


Since I know you're a little*... mentally incapacitated I will try to make it as simple as it can possibly be so even you may have a solid chance at comprehension:

Balance is not the same as game mechanic just like apples are not oranges.
Bad balance can be a source of bad mechanic, but not the other way around.
Comparing or even using that as analogy is simply stupid.



Game mechanics and balance are totally inseparable, balance comes from game mechanics, not the other way around. Your putting the cart before the horse.

The suppression mechanic is poorly designed because heavy machine guns like the MG42, Maxim, and .50 cal suppressed infantry by keeping them in cover to avoid being chewed to shreds. This could be 100% the case with out the adding of a shitty mechanic by simply making infantry who decide to stand in front of MG's like dodo's die very fast.

Were does the suppression come in? It comes in by making it so your more likely to move cover to cover to avoid being chewed apart instead of a forced artificial mechanic.








*vast understatement


Game mechanics and balance are totally inseparable, balance comes from game mechanics, not the other way around. Your putting the cart before the horse.

The suppression mechanic is poorly designed because heavy machine guns like the MG42, Maxim, and .50 cal suppressed infantry by keeping them in cover to avoid being chewed to shreds. This could be 100% the case with out the adding of a shitty mechanic by simply making infantry who decide to stand in front of MG's like dodo's die very fast.

Were does the suppression come in? It comes in by making it so your more likely to move cover to cover to avoid being chewed apart instead of a forced artificial mechanic.
29 Mar 2015, 02:05 AM
#36
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

having suppression teams deal high damage while suppressing works perfectly fine; look at dow2. everything is more lethal in that game.
29 Mar 2015, 04:48 AM
#37
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

having suppression teams deal high damage while suppressing works perfectly fine; look at dow2. everything is more lethal in that game.

Well, to be fair, that's probably because DoW2 also had melee assault teams that could literally jump into said suppression teams regardless of those suppression teams' power and then probably wreck the suppression teams super hard because retreating causes units to take more melee damage. Also, I recall a fair amount of players voiced discontent with that latter part so, you know...nuthin's perfect.

My guess behind the HMGs' very heavy reliance on being supported in CoH2 is meant to balance out how a unit they suppress will stay suppressed as long as pretty much anything is shooting at it, unlike in CoH1 or DoW2 where after the suppression source leaves, suppressed squads will recover pretty quickly.
29 Mar 2015, 06:50 AM
#38
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

nope. suppression was the counter to melee. the only melee that was a counter to setup teams was jump teams but they didn't do much damage themselves in general, or were glass cannons.
29 Mar 2015, 06:59 AM
#39
avatar of Vuther
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

nope. suppression was the counter to melee. the only melee that was a counter to setup teams was jump teams but they didn't do much damage themselves in general, or were glass cannons.

That's what I said, ones that literally jumped in.

They, of course, were still balanced. Just not necessarily everyone liked every factor in the equation for it (as mentioned, some people disliked the received melee damage penalty on retreating because a melee squad behind your retreating units was goddamn hell, but it was quite necessary to give, say Assault Marines, a real chance to be useful since they really didn't do much damage outside jumping into ranged units, and without the bonus it'd be liable melee in general would be useless against good players that simply retreat their units the moment they see things could go wrong against melee units).
29 Mar 2015, 07:20 AM
#40
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

jump troops do shit for damage and camping anything on the setup team quickly forced them off. jump troops hard countering setup teams has nothing to do with the high damage and lack of suppression shield.
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