Real Talk: Panther

Hello. I think that as CoH2's competitive community, we really, truly need to talk about the Panther. I'll start with the stats.

MP Cost: 490
Fuel Cost: 175
Armor: 320
Weapon: Kwk42 75mm
260/240/220 Penetration
160 damage
Poor to nonexistent anti-infantry performance.
5.7/6.3 minimum/maximum reload

Speed: 6.6 maximum, 2.4 acceleration
Hitpoints: 800

Abilities:

Blitzkrieg Tactics (Combat Blitz for OKW)
Panzer Tactician (Doctrinal)
Spotting Scope (Passive, Doctrinal)

MP Cost for earliest access: 1120 (Ostheer)/ 400 (OKW)
Fuel Cost for earliest access: 230 - 20 starting fuel (Ostheer) / 120 - 40 starting fuel (OKW)

Now that I've saved everyone the trouble of digging, I would like to go into what these numbers mean.

Panther has the best armor out of any medium tank in the game by far with 320 armor and 800 hit points, with Sherman Easy Eight coming in the second best with 215 armor with 640 hitpoints and the T-34/85 also coming second with 160 armor and 800 hitpoints.

Panther consistently penetrates both of these tanks at all ranges, with the maximum penetration rate for Easy 8 against Panther being slightly higher than 50% and for T-34/85 being exactly 50% at the closest range. Since the reload rate for these tanks is about the same with T-34/85 actually reloading slower in average than the Panther, it is safe to say that Panther will win every 1v1 engagement with either of these tanks, with a very good chance of killing one and surviving a 2v1 thanks to the incredible shot bounce rate.

Panther is often compared to the 60 range tank destroyers; which Ostheer indeed does not have a non-doctrinal analogue to. However, its 260/240/220 penetration profile is far superior to Jackson's 200/180/160 and SU-85's 200/190/180, and unless multiple Jacksons using their penetration ability consistently are present; Panther is by far the most cost effective tank destroyer. It should also be noted that HVAP does not guarantee penetration on a Panther, and also that Allied tanks generally have less armor than their Axis counterparts, with the notable exception of IS-2. If you do follow World War II materiel outside of Company of Heroes 2, you would know that IS-2 is really more of a comparison to King Tiger than it is to Tiger, in which case, that statement is voided as well.

Panther also has the best abilties. Besides being a sure penetration on almost every Allied tank and having a far better time against Allied heavies than the Allied tank destroyers have against the Axis heavies, Panther can get out of any sticky situation with its veteran ability; Blitzkrieg Tactics (Combat Blitz), quickly get to the maximum range and then outside it to further reduce and then later remove the chance of a penetrating shot. Panzer Tactician provides an additional way to perform this; giving Panther by far the best survivability of any tank destroyer in the game. Indeed; while Elefant and Jagdtiger have far superior armor and health, they will never be able to recover on their own from a flank due to their poor rotation. Meanwhile, Panther is not slower than any of the vehicles that may attempt to flank it, and even has abilities to be invisible to them or go faster. Granted, ground attack can invalidate Panzer Tactician, but it requires a mixture of luck, timing, and player input and most of the time a Panther on blitz is long gone thanks to the incredible acceleration and maximum speed. Secure Mode in contrast isn't really comparable, and Radio Net only truly shines for HE Shermans.

It is often argued that killing tanks is the only thing Panther can do, and then argued that T-34/85 is just as good if not better thanks to its anti-infantry ability. I disagree with these for the following reasons:

1. Panther doesn't need to kill anything else. Multirole tanks are nice to have, but hardly necessary when your infantry scale far better to late game than your opponent's infantry. Indeed; OKW has zero problems with their infantry at late game where they are factually the best and most cost effective, and Ostheer Grenadiers scale generously with their supreme veterancy and LMG42 upgrade. Moreover, the alternative to Panther; Panzer IV is hardly to be considered effective on its own and it requires AT gun support to truly shine. So basically, the people who defend the Panther with the statement that it can only kill tanks are the same people who don't use combined arms in order to get the anti-infantry performance that Panther does not have to fulfill.

2. Panther is not slower than T-34 or Sherman. It is actually far faster during its ability, and it can crush just the same. A lot of T-34/85's anti infantry performance is attributed to its crushing ability as the main cannon has a decent amount of scatter to keep it from being really good at the job consistently, which the Panther has more of thanks to even better speed, less danger involved thanks to higher frontal armor, and no Panzerschreck-tier handheld AT to fear. A T-34/85 fears Panzerfaust more than Panther fears AT grenade, so it could be argued that the Panther is a better crusher here. This is of course balanced by how Allied squads are larger and the T-34/85 main cannon indeed is far superior against infantry; this is just to state that the rift between the two in anti-infantry performance isn't as large as some people would want to believe. Morever, Panther has the same MG upgrade as every other Axis tank, giving it decent utility against infantry and aircraft.

Panther costs 110 MP and 40 fuel more than a Sherman Easy Eight (I may be mistaken, I do not have the doctrine) and costs 90 MP and 35 fuel more than a T-34/85. It has far superior abilities to either and can take on a pair of either tank cost effectively, kill one and then make a getaway, unless RNG is particularly cruel to the Panther and enemy shots consistently penetrate.

It could be argued that Jackson can do similar things to Panzer IVs (SU-85 definetely doesn't), but Jackson gets 3 hit killed by Panzer IV just like it can 3-hit-kill a Panzer IV and at that point all it has as a dedicated tank destroyer over its supposed prey is the range advantage as it cannot even self-spot. Please think this over and then compare it to what Panther does to its supposed equals; Sherman Easy Eight, Jackson, SU-85 and T-34/85, let alone the poor generalists that are T-34/76 and M4A3 Sherman.

We still have players in the forums talking about how Ostheer T4 is accessible too late and that Panther is actually a bad tank because it is so inaccessible. They are entitled to their opinion, but let's talk with numbers.

Ostheer teching, completely teching I mean, costs 1120 MP and 210 fuel accounting for starting fuel. In the meantime, you get your Rifle Grenades and Panzerfausts, analogues of which both Allied factions have to pay for. 210 fuel is actually very, very tame. It's an extremely generous fuel cost when you compare it to the Soviet 340 fuel excluding the grenade upgrades and accounting for starting fuel. Soviets indeed don't have to tech completely; but the fact is that Soviet teching is so ridiculously expensive and pointless that Soviets rely on call-ins and they are factually underpowered without abusing the horribly designed call-in system. That's a can of worms that deserves its own thread, so not now.

My point is, Ostheer teching fuel costs are actually pretty tame as that 210 fuel is if you actually build all tier buildings and not say, skip T3 to save 25 fuel.

So why do some people think Panther is fine despite its extreme cost effectiveness against anything that could be considered its peer while others go as far as to claim it is underpowered and should be made more accessible? The reasons I believe are as follows:

1. Tiger. Call-in meta, full stop. The same 210 fuel it takes to unlock a Panther is the same it takes to buy a Tiger (when you add in the starting fuel). That is completely ridiculous. Tiger can perform similarly, and the amount of extreme cost-effectiveness against any Allied vehicle Panther provides is made up by how Tiger can do the job a bit worse but couple it with great anti-infantry performance, more health, and the same abilities as Panther. This doesn't mean that the Tiger is OP or that Panther is underpowered, it simply means that CoH2 has a serious design flaw that needs to be fixed. It of course should apply to vehicles like IS-2, ISU-152, Elefant etc. as well, in case I haven't made that clear.

2. T-34/85, IS-2, Easy 8 etc. all come far earlier. Why again? Call-in meta. This doesn't need a just as long paragraph; none of those units should come at a teching cost of 0.

3. MP teching costs for Ostheer are absolutely ridiculously insane. A combined reduction of 150 MP would go a very, very long way in fixing Ostheer teching. My suggestion is to focus the reduction on the T2-T3 area so that T3 can be used more often.

Thanks for reading this massive wall of text. Let me know what you think about the Panther below.

Let me know what you think about the Panther below.

Still:

1. To expensive
2. To inaccessible because of teching costs
2. Calling in a Tiger is more practical. If you skip T3 as Ostheer you will be rolled over by Allied medium Armour and blobs. So you better build dat T3 and support it with Tiger and paks. That way you will have AI AND AT power. And no, this doesn't mean that Tiger is OP or that call-in meta for Ostheer is not ok. That means ostheer found a way to survive to this balance crap and you are trying to ruin it.
If you make in such way that T4 remains the only option for heavies and heavy counters for Ostheer you can kiss your uniform bye bye and change your avatar picture with a soviet officer. Otherwise you won't be winning soon.

The only Panther worthing is OKW Panther for its very slight better performance and because its accessibility.

Thnak you.

TLDR?

I have no interest using 5-10 mins reading another "repeat and repeated" against panther whine.

I will just add my 2 cents about cost when compare to Tiger call in.
I'm talking from 2v2 perspective since in 1v1 OST T4 does not exist.

Of course you can save fuel, flot with fuel around 400 at 25min, call in Tiger, wait 5mins for MP and call second one but what between 0-25min? Only infantry and paks? Of cours it's doable but it's not that easy. It's always good to have Pz4 around.

But to the point... Just yesterday, I was playing 2v2 as Ostheer, and I was able to get Panther at 15:43. Excalty at this moment it hit the field which was very helpful agasint AA HT and Shermans.

So here is something to think about.
You can save fuel to get 2 Tigers around 30min but you can use that fuel to get powerful tank much earlier so you can make hard push, take enemy's fuel, whatever.

Every single stock unit which comes eariler than call-in equivalent should cost more, because you are paying for the time you just bought.

You can't simply compare costs of Tiger and Panther. You need to look from bigger perspective.
When it can hit the field?
What it can provide me?
Is it better to wait for IS2 and rely on T2 or maybe it's better to make T70, T34 and then IS2?
You will "lose" 1 IS2 for teching and getting T70 and T34 but on the other hand, you will get amazing units to push and in fact, many times it's better to get T70+T34 instead of waiting for IS2. Same with Panther and Tiger. Sometimes it's better to pay for time, in this case around 10min, to get powerful unit much earlier.
And on...
And on...


By the way, Panther itself is fine.

man, if you're gonna post an essay, please use a comprehensive argument structure with a single thesis for us to follow. you're all over the place.

tech cost, call in meta, stats,

Why is this in the balance section? Don't really see any suggestions only "what do you guys think about the Panther Kappa?"

I do build panthers occasionally but only for something different. I rarely ever have a game where i won solely because i decided to build a panther over a tiger. I have certainly lost games because i went panther over tiger.

Tiger often gives much needed anti infantry capability where as cons can literally chase off a panther due to fear of AT nade.

Rifles also don't fear a panther compared to tiger and often the tiger is the only unit that can turn the game vs USF..

i think panther definitely have a place in 2v2+. sometimes they are more suitable than tiger and KT. for ost, still hard to get it in timely manner, if allies lead early game but whateve.

man, if you're gonna post an essay, please use a comprehensive argument structure with a single thesis for us to follow. you're all over the place.

tech cost, call in meta, stats,

This.
-----
Answering each and everyone of your comparisons and suggestions takes hours, but Long story short (with 1s and 2s in mind):

- If SU85 or Jackson can not do their jobs, it's their problem. They both need tweaks (Jackson: Penetration and acceleration buff, damage nerf/ SU85: the same, maybe no damage nerf) which by the way is another thing and there have been enough arguments about the issue.

- You forgot to mention survivability buffs which Panther gets with vet (It's HP gets close to KT close to tiger)

- It is still too expensive (specially as Ostheer since you can get the mighty tiger which wipes infantry left and right), and comes too late, and for both reasons you can not spam Panthers as much as E8s and T34/85s. It had terrible accuracy on the move.

- The major problem with panther is the Blitz ability in combination with it's armor which reflects most of infantry snares (Rifle grenades, AT grenades). So it can take a lot of punishment, and then blitz out. The received accuracy buff on that ability is a pain in the ass. I think this ability should be used in offense.

This.
-----
Answering each and everyone of your comparisons and suggestions takes hours, but Long story short (with 1s and 2s in mind):

- If SU85 or Jackson can not do their jobs, it's their problem. They both need tweaks (Jackson: Penetration and acceleration buff, damage nerf/ SU85: the same, maybe no damage nerf) which by the way is another thing and there have been enough arguments about the issue.

- You forgot to mention survivability buffs which Panther gets with vet (It's HP gets close to KT)

- It is still too expensive (specially as Ostheer since you can get the mighty tiger which wipes infantry left and right), and comes too late, and for both reasons you can not spam Panthers as much as E8s and T34/85s. It had terrible accuracy on the move.

- The major problem with panther is the Blitz ability in combination with it's armor which reflects most of infantry snares (Rifle grenades, AT grenades). So it can take a lot of punishment, and then blitz out. The received accuracy buff on that ability is a pain in the ass. I think this ability should be used in offense.

At Vet 2 it gets 960 health, which is about the same as a Tiger I, but several hundred less than a KT which has 1440.

At Vet 2 it gets 960 health, which is about the same as a Tiger I, but several hundred less than a KT which has 1440.

Fixed. Thanks.

Eh, wasn't it 1040 for all Heavies, and 1280 for "Super" Heavies? (Jagd, King, Sturm)

Eh, wasn't it 1040 for all Heavies, and 1280 for "Super" Heavies? (Jagd, King, Sturm)

Ah you are right, I don't remember if it was changed a while ago or not. 1280 for all of the Super's.

EDIT: I was thinking of the Sturmtiger which gets 1440 health at Vet 2, my mistake.

Whats the point?You want panther nerfed?
Or just highlighting its good points?

Whats the point?You want panther nerfed?
Or just highlighting its good points?

Just pointing out that Panther is the Obersoldaten of tanks; you can beat it with other tanks but good luck if you want it done cost effectively. It is better in every way than anything that could be considered its peer except it doesn't have 60 range, but it gains so much in return compared to its peers that do, that it is a negligible shortcoming anyway.

That and teching to it is actually just fine Fuel wise for Ost and too cheap for OKW; when MP wise it's too much for Ost and still too cheap for Ost.

Just pointing out that Panther is the Obersoldaten of tanks; you can beat it with other tanks but good luck if you want it done cost effectively. It is better in every way than anything that could be considered its peer except it doesn't have 60 range, but it gains so much in return compared to its peers that do, that it is a negligible shortcoming anyway.

That and teching to it is actually just fine Fuel wise for Ost and too cheap for OKW; when MP wise it's too much for Ost and still too cheap for Ost.

Wut?

Oh good, you should type this first, then I can even save my twenty seconds scanning through your wall of bullshit.