Real Talk: Panther

LOL OMG! No Relic did not say that. Quinn Duffy said it is possible but probably wouldnt help anything. Nowhere did he ever say that Side armor was not possible.

You misquote ALOT of things.

And still waiting on why buffing DPS and taking away God Armor is a bad idea. Still waiting...

They don't have god armor, they only have 20 more than a Tiger. They also have 200 less health than a Tiger.

And Relic has said reverse accelerations and side armor is not going to happen, which is what I said.

As pointed out earlier, the ZiS, Jackson, and SU-85 all have a 50% chance or more to pen the Panthers frontal "god" armor.

And still waiting on why buffing DPS and taking away God Armor is a bad idea. Still waiting...

Wrath of God?

This might be off-topic.

You both make good points about PZIVs and JPZIVs being more viable, BUT:
Correct me if I'm wrong, PZIV is outclassed by Jackson (180 armor meaning around 90% penetration at max range). JPZIV is a bit different, although it has good armor (230 meaning around 70% penetration at max range) and it also has a small target size, so if the shot hits, it most probably will penetrate. IMO, these dedicated tank destroyers should outclass medium armor, YES, Jackson should beat PZIV at max range, and it already does. So, increasing the penetration (and also reducing damage a bit so the poor PZIV has a chance to run) would not do any more harm. Although a well microd PZIV might get the Jackson off-gaurd and kill it, which is a reward for microing your tank well.

About the heavies being slow, you have a point there but it's hard for USF to flank a KT. If your enemy is not brain dead, there is at least another unit to support the KT. A Schreck Blob or their teammate's PZIV or PAK. So, TDs should counter heavy armor from far away, frontally.

In a balance utopia, you find use for each and every unit in the game. But you can't expect your StuG to counter the Jackson. If you see Shermans, you go for StuGs and PZIVs. If you think they might bring in Jacksons, you go for Panthers and other heavies.

PS: Still believe that the Blitz is the major problem.

The P4 is CRUSHED by the Jackson similar to how an Elephant will crush a T34. As USF its hard to flank anything. Since 9/10 times the highest HP Pool youll get is 640. And most are below that. Flanking is punished Heavily. You need to ENCIRCLE to receive any reward as flanking can still result in a front hit.

In Essence trying to flank in 90% of cases is a bad idea.

So the Jackson must engage at Max Range where its DPS and its Pen is the weakest.

The Panther on the other hand like an LMG can just A move. Seeing a Pattern Here? Shreks A move, Obers? A move Panther? A move.

Because its too fast to be encircled and too much armor and HPs to be killed frontally unless you just suck or the RNG gods hate you.

Blitz is a problem but I would say the Armor/HPs are a bigger problem. I honestly have an easier time taking out a KT then a Panther. Because things can escape the KT. Its big and its slow and GOD HELP IT if it takes Engine Damage.

An Engine Damaged Panther using ROAD BLITZ is faster then most tanks who are not also on a road. So Engine damage is not punished on the Panther as its still fast and just needs to reverse.

If people dont want the reduce its Armor for lore purposes FINE! 640 HPs. DONE.

There is no need for it to have more armor then a Tiger and More Speed with More Range and almost the same amount of HPs arriving at the 12 min mark in a 1v1.

USF needs AI armor to deal with things like Obers and Officer Backed G43 Pfuse. But the Panther punishes that it makes the unholy OKW Trifecta. Shreks, Obers, Panther. There is no weakness in that build. Only Strength.

Relic has stated Side Armor and Different reverse accelerations are not actually possible.

What did you say again?

The P4 is CRUSHED by the Jackson similar to how an Elephant will crush a T34. As USF its hard to flank anything. Since 9/10 times the highest HP Pool youll get is 640. And most are below that. Flanking is punished Heavily. You need to ENCIRCLE to receive any reward as flanking can still result in a front hit.

In Essence trying to flank in 90% of cases is a bad idea.

So the Jackson must engage at Max Range where its DPS and its Pen is the weakest.

The Panther on the other hand like an LMG can just A move. Seeing a Pattern Here? Shreks A move, Obers? A move Panther? A move.

Because its too fast to be encircled and too much armor and HPs to be killed frontally unless you just suck or the RNG gods hate you.

Blitz is a problem but I would say the Armor/HPs are a bigger problem. I honestly have an easier time taking out a KT then a Panther. Because things can escape the KT. Its big and its slow and GOD HELP IT if it takes Engine Damage.

An Engine Damaged Panther using ROAD BLITZ is faster then most tanks who are not also on a road. So Engine damage is not punished on the Panther as its still fast and just needs to reverse.

If people dont want the reduce its Armor for lore purposes FINE! 640 HPs. DONE.

There is no need for it to have more armor then a Tiger and More Speed with More Range and almost the same amount of HPs arriving at the 12 min mark in a 1v1.

USF needs AI armor to deal with things like Obers and Officer Backed G43 Pfuse. But the Panther punishes that it makes the unholy OKW Trifecta. Shreks, Obers, Panther. There is no weakness in that build. Only Strength.

The KT has a far, far higher chance to bounce a shot from an SU-85 than a Panther has, and the KT does more DPS than a Panther.

It doesn't have "almost the same" It has 240 less HP than a Tiger, The Panther has 800 health which is exactly the same as a T34/85.

You keep forgetting the Panther cost over 40-45 fuel more than any other medium tank in the game. Why should such an expensive and costly unit preform or have the same stats as units that cost far less than it?

If Blitz is a problem that needs to be addressed, but nerfing the Panther will just make it so nobody builds it anymore because people don't like paying 175 fuel for eh units. You will just see more Tiger spam from Ostheer and more shrek spam from OKW. The JPIV might get used more but everyone who went Mechanized HQ as OKW would get screwed.

And oh Expert at Vet 2 what does the Panther have?

Again give it more DPS. Lower armor. It should be possible to kill it easily if someone is a fool. Not bounce 50% OR MORE shots at it as it moonwalks away.

And oh Expert at Vet 2 what does the Panther have?

What is the point of this? It's been pointed out multiple times the Panther can be penned and killed, it's weak to infantry based AT because of it's poor AI performance.

Soviets don't have an issue killing it, and USF merely needs to get more AT options other than the Jackson. The issue is not the Panther, the issue is USF lacking AT options outside just making Jackson's and invalidating Medium tanks.

EDIT: It will always only bounce 50% of shots max from the Jackson, SU-85 and ZiS, no more.

If people dont want the reduce its Armor for lore purposes FINE! 640 HPs. DONE.

Hm, could be a good solution too if necessary. Its rear armour is low, but its speed and health pool easily lets it reverse away from such situations in most cases. Reducing said health pool could do a lot.

Soviets can Spam overperforming call ins to deal with it Only. Lets see a Soviet easily take out a Panther with Stock Tier Units you wont.

So therfore to take on a stock early arrival tank thats in ALMOST EVERY GAME the USF will need to have many commanders released with OP call ins? GREAT!

T34/85s with Mark Vehicle do your FAVORITE 240 Damage a SHOT! But both have more Armor and 800 HPs for a total HP pool of 1600. So of COURSE Panther isnt a problem if they can get around which they can do because there are two of them.

The IS2 is a Heavy tank. The ISU is a heavy tank killer.

Outside of these Three Scenerios NO the Soviets will not have an easy time killing this non doctrinal tank.

T34/85s in fact WITHOUT Mark are Mediocre tanks much like the Easy 8.

So yes Alex lets not make any OKW units not A move friendly. It would probably mess up the Meta. There would be a unit in the unholy trifecta that doesnt work best at A Move range and we know that would just be TERRIBLE! lol

Finally at Vet 2 a Panther has 960 HPs not 800 in case you were wondering.

Dude the ZiS gun can easily pen it's frontal armor, I don't know what your trying to say when it flies directly in the face of reality. Lay a few mines, and the minute it gets engine damage it's dead.

The Panther is not A move friendly at all, it sucks ass at pushing defensive formations because it's weak to AT guns and TD's at max range, it also can't be used at the front of a column because you need to be sweeping for mines.

When you want to "A move" and assault an enemy position you want units like the Sturmtiger, or maybe a stuka to soften up the enemy. Even a Puma can use smoke to close the distance.

T34/85's are by no means mediocre, they are very cost effective at only 140 fuel and 800 health. Good speed, good performance VS infantry and still has a good crush like the T34.

You also keep discounting the cost, that 175 fuel means he won't be getting anything else for a while, and for Ostheer it means they cannot produce heavies and they would have had to skip mediums in order to get it out in time.

Hm, could be a good solution too if necessary. Its rear armour is low, but its speed and health pool easily lets it reverse away from such situations in most cases. Reducing said health pool could do a lot.

Rear armor being low would be a weakness if it was slow. But its not.

@Alex

175 fuel is not enough for what you get. If they want to lower its armor to say 250 and its fuel cost to 150 I am fine with that.

In the end its a special snowflake with a collection of all the best attributes of all Armor in game save for only having Mediocre (not non existant) AI.

Side armour and front/reverse speed differences would combine to actually solve half of the problems with heavies, callins etc. "Flanking" is meaningless if "flanking" actually requires you to hit the rear of the tank at point blank range. Panthers had beastly front armour, but their sides could be penetrated by 75mm Sherman from large distances. Modelling this in the game would help promote the use of the Panther as a "sniper" and frontal slugger, while allowing it to be vulnerable to attacks on its sides and helping mediums flank it without actually having to get BEHIND it.

Similarly, the idea that a tank can reverse away at the same speed as it accelerates forward means that a fast tank like the Panther does not have to expose its rear armour to take advantage of its full speed in an escape. It also means that blitz causes you to have WARP SPEED REVERSE. It's honestly too forgiving and tanks should have slightly lower acceleration and top speed for their reverse gears.

Both things require Relic to make modifications to their engine, modifications that I can't believe didn't make it into CoH2 to begin with. Some tooltips even imply that side armour exists

In the end its a special snowflake with a collection of all the best attributes of all Armor in game save for only having Mediocre (not non existant) AI.

Elaboration: 16-10.7 DPS with the coax and pintle.

You people already ruined tiger.Now it loses to both allied endgame armor -is-2 and jacksons.Now i guess panther is the last tank for ost,even if 1 vs 1 u can't even get it.So now ur after ending this final tank.You know pz 4 is useless anyway.Nice,already ost is largely destroyed faction whose earlygame units were by and large nerfed into the ground and now looking to finish off the last lategame armor unit,that too only in 2 vs 2 and higher.Even though wehrmacht has weakest lategame infantry,weakest lategame artillery and 3rd strongest lategame armor.So no fuck you.

If we want an nerf we start with the is-2.

If we want an nerf we start with the is-2.

Nerf that thing which struggles to fight off Schreck blobs like the rest of them while Tigers are benefiting a ton from squad-bunching??

Nerf that thing which struggles to fight off Schreck blobs like the rest of them while Tigers are benefiting a ton from squad-bunching??

Plz is-2 1 shots volks easily,and volks often struggle to penetrate it.And anyway ost don't have volks, tiger is a glorified heavy ostwind these days.Both jackson,p-47 and is-2 laugh at it.Reduce tech costs to make panther accesible and not a single ost player will use tiger anymore unless opponent is madly inf spamming.More and more ost players have realized tiger is no good and are moving away from it,to CAS/osttruppen/elefant docs .Just reduce the tech costs and see what happens to 'tiger'.

Nerf that thing which struggles to fight off Schreck blobs like the rest of them while Tigers are benefiting a ton from squad-bunching??

IS2's are potent because they can bounce shreks easily. It's also are the fastest heavy in the game outside the Panther and KV1.

The IS2 doesn't need a nerf, the Panther doesn't need a nerf, Ost just needs the Pak40 to not die in one hit and USF just needs a better AT gun.

175 fuel is not enough for what you get. If they want to lower its armor to say 250 and its fuel cost to 150 I am fine with that.

In the end its a special snowflake with a collection of all the best attributes of all Armor in game save for only having Mediocre (not non existant) AI.

250 would give it worse armor than the KV1, which only costs 45 fuel and doesn't need teching. It would also be retardedly easy to kill with Jacksons and SU-85s.

The last time the Panther had it's cost reduced but it was nerfed literally nooone built it. We don't need to go back to that.

This is a awesome thread.


Someone posts about the good and bad points of the Panther, then out of the woodwork every Axis only player comes to its gallant defense.

The bias is so strong here.

Blitz just needs to be fixed.

Also.

Dude the ZiS gun can easily pen it's frontal armor, I don't know what your trying to say when it flies directly in the face of reality.

This is a awesome thread.


Someone posts about the good and bad points of the Panther, then out of the woodwork every Axis only player comes to its gallant defense.

The bias is so strong here.

Blitz just needs to be fixed.

Also.

In what world is a greater than 50% chance to pen frontally at max range not easy? Does noone remember when the ZiS couldn't even pen the front armor of a PIV?