Stug IV

I agreed the Jackson needs some help, a small pen buff + better ROF with a damage reduction would make it do MORE DPS to tanks than it currently does, but would make it less stupid with the whole erasing mediums thing.

And the Jackson is far more maneuverable than the JPIV and SU-85, it has best acceleration, max speed, and best deceleration. Plus it also has a turret which allows it to keep firing at enemy tanks while manuvering while the JPIV and SU-85 cannot.

It also has far, far better accuracy on the move compared to the JPIV and SU-85.

The lack of armor for the Jackson means jack shit, yes it gets penned easily, but if your charging your Jacksons into shrek blobs and not supporting them you deserve to lose it; why in gods name would volks even be a problem for you with squad wipe machines like the Scott, or BAR'd/1919's rifles or Para's.

It will never not amaze me how people have no idea how trade offs work. The Jadgtiger has no gun traverse meaning you need to constantly stay on the ball in regards to turning it and facing it, while anticipating armor movements due to it's slow speed.

That's called a trade off, every unit should have one.

The Jackson would need a price increase then, 240 pen at max range + it's great mobility would make it out class every medium TD in the game in every way except armor.

For instance, 240 at max range is almost 100 more than the JPIV at max range and the SU-85 at max range.

No it wouldn't. The compensation for more pen is less damage.

Other TDs might have less armor but they have more HP and armor.

To put things in perspective, the only tanks in the game with more than 240 pen at max range are the Jadgtiger and Elefant.

At 240 pen at max range the Jackson would have the best long range penetration of any non-doc tank in the game, as well as all doctrine tanks in the game except for the two previously mentioned.

To put things in perpective, it's the only tank USF can get that is designed to fight tanks. It's the only vehicle USF have that is able to fight against Panthers/Tigers (and it doesn't even do a great job).

Even with 240 pen it wouldn't be the best non-doc TD. No armor (only small arms resistant) and low health make it extremely easy to destroy. SU-85 and JPIV might have less pen but they don't get 3-shotted so easily.

The JPIV also has more armor and fights against tanks with less armor in general which makes it the best non-doc TD in-game IMO (even if the Jackson had 240 pen).

Uh, the Jacksons mobility means it requires less micro, not more. It can easily escape a sticky situation in a way the SU-85 and JPIV cannot.

Making the Jackson literally the most cost efficient best tank killer in the game that also comes in roughly the same time Ostheer first gets T3 would make Axis medium armor more rare, not less. It would also turn the Tiger into a joke, since the Tiger would be helpless if it's armor was getting penned every time by a tank it couldn't even touch.

What makes the Jackson ~okay~ versus heavy armor is the trade off of damage versus pen, meaning that when you pen you fuck a tank up hard, making it's damage reduced but giving it garenteed penetration would mean there is literally no trade off.

The last time I looked at the stats, SU-85s and JPIV had enough HP/armor not to get 3-shotted by almost anything in the game.

As others already said, Jacksons already pen every OST T3 vehicle with 240 DMG. Increasing its pen will not affect T3 in a negative way but reducing its DMG will make it less powerful vs mediums.

Put a PaK behind your Tiger and see how the Jackson can't do anything.

The trade-off is reduced DMG. Even with 240 pen it's not guaranteed that it will pen a Tiger/Panther (only with HVAP rounds).

It will have over a 70% chance to pen the Panther and Tiger if it had 240 at max, it also get's 3 shot by 160 damage tanks and AT guns because it's weak armor is a trade off for it's far better mobility and the fact it has a turret!

The JPIV has good frontal armor because it is the least mobile medium tank in the game, the Su-85 can sight for itself.

Panthers/Tigers (and it doesn't even do a great job).

Are you kidding? Right now at 240 damage, 2 Jacksons can take half the health off a Panther in the first volley, and almost half the health off a Tiger. The Jacksons issue is that it doesn't preform reliably versus heavy armor thanks to the poor ROF.

The JPIV also has more armor and fights against tanks with less armor in general which makes it the best non-doc TD in-game IMO (even if the Jackson had 240 pen).

So? It's very easy to flank due to having no gun traverse and very little mobility.

Put a PaK behind your Tiger and see how the Jackson can't do anything.

Okay and the Pak can't hit the Jackson because it only has 60 range will the Tiger is out in front, of course this also assumes no infantry are supporting your Jacksons.

This is a Stug IV thread. Not to clutter up the thread or add unnecessary additions to the # of posts...

Stug IV wouldnt be much different from the Stug III, if at all. The Stug III could use love as its the Axis version of the Su-76...

I would like to see it become effective, but not ridiculous - but most important of all, be cheaper in fuel as to be the most numerous Axis tank. It would be cool if having numerous stugs wasnt a suicide tactic...

Jackson discussion needs to end...

Any discussion of Axis T3 will end in discussion of the unit that makes it non-viable.

What the StuG III needs is armor/health buff.

Put a PaK behind your Tiger and see how the Jackson can't do anything.

Jackson can stay out range of the pak if the pak is behind the tiger.

Jackson can stay out range of the pak if the pak is behind the tiger.

Put the goddamn PaK beside your Tiger then! Jeez...

My point is: Support your tanks with ATGs to keep TDs (like the Jackson) at range and to ensure that your tanks can retreat safely when their health is too low.

Put the goddamn PaK beside your Tiger then! Jeez...

My point is: Support your tanks with ATGs to keep TDs (like the Jackson) at range and to ensure that your tanks can retreat safely when their health is too low.

To bad the USF player has 1919 riflemen to ruin your PaK's day

This discussion is honestly pointless, Ostheer T3 right now sucks because the Jackson does to much damage and comes in to fast while the StuG III and Ostwind are cost ineffective.

Uh, the Jacksons mobility means it requires less micro, not more. It can easily escape a sticky situation in a way the SU-85 and JPIV cannot.

Making the Jackson literally the most cost efficient best tank killer in the game that also comes in roughly the same time Ostheer first gets T3 would make Axis medium armor more rare, not less. It would also turn the Tiger into a joke, since the Tiger would be helpless if it's armor was getting penned every time by a tank it couldn't even touch.

What makes the Jackson ~okay~ versus heavy armor is the trade off of damage versus pen, meaning that when you pen you fuck a tank up hard, making it's damage reduced but giving it garenteed penetration would mean there is literally no trade off.

When I think you can't say something more stupid, then you just surprise me.

You want to say that Jackson requires less micro than Panther, Tiger, Elephant, Jadgtiger, IS2, ISU, SU or Jadgpanzer? Good one.
And Jackson can't escape any sticky situation. 1 bad move, 1 bad lag, 1 bad pathfind and Jackson is gone while SU or Jadgpanzer can easily survive cause of HP or Armor.

And how excatly you want to flank Jadgpanzer? Decent opponent will always keep close Volks.

On maps like Hurtgen Forest Jackson is useless. Jadgpanzer completly denies it. Troi-Point and Hurtgen are almost unplayable for USF.
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240 Pen at max range for Jackson? So 280 at close range? A bit to big if we want 240dmg.
240 is OK but close range. At max distance 200 would be OK.
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No need for Stug IV.
Make Stug III pure AT with 60 range and penetration about 160/140/120.

When I think you can't say something more stupid, then you just surprise me.

You want to say that Jackson requires less micro than Panther, Tiger, Elephant, Jadgtiger, IS2, ISU, SU or Jadgpanzer? Good one.
And Jackson can't escape any sticky situation. 1 bad move, 1 bad lag, 1 bad pathfind and Jackson is gone while SU or Jadgpanzer can easily survive cause of HP or Armor.

And how excatly you want to flank Jadgpanzer? Decent opponent will always keep close Volks.

On maps like Hurtgen Forest Jackson is useless. Jadgpanzer completly denies it. Troi-Point and Hurtgen are almost unplayable for USF.
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240 Pen at max range for Jackson? So 280 at close range? A bit to big if we want 240dmg.
240 is OK but close range. At max distance 200 would be OK.
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No need for Stug IV.
Make Stug III pure AT with 60 range and penetration about 160/140/120.

Did I compare it to a Tiger, Panther or any else of those things? No I did not.

The strength of the Jackson is the fact it can fire on the move more accurately than any TD in the game while also having a turret so when your moving away from a dangerous situation you can keep the DPS up.

The armor of a JPIV/Su-85 and health means jack shit unless you can kill what's hitting you, which the Jackson can actually do thanks to it's turret.

It also has far more speed and acceleration than either of those to which means it can react much quicker to a dangerous situation. The SU-85 and JPIV can only survive 1 more hit to, that's it. There are no Axis tanks that do more than 160 damage barring the Heavies/Super Heavies.

You said that Jackson's mobility means less micro. So less mobile vehicle = more micro since more mobile vehicles = less micro - according to you.

You can easily reverse SU or JPIV and still shoot at your enemy, unless it's damn obvious flank (which is falt of the SU/JP user). If enemy is attacking your frontally and trying to get behind JP/SU, he won't or he will die.

1 more hit is big difference, not to mention that JP can take usually 1-4hits cuse of very good armor.

But no need to say more. According to you, Jackson does not require intensive micro which is pure bullshit.

And dont you see how big troll you are? In every single thread you get into, you turn it into balace/design thread. No matter what the topic is about. It's just pure trolling.

The JPIV has the least mobility of any medium tank in the game, one simply needs to use it to understand how painful it is to micro with it's piss poor turning and acceleration. Not to mention the fact that it can't traverse it's gun.

And this is a thread about gameplay, it's in the gameplay forum.

And yes more mobile vehicles with better acceleration and turning are easier to micro because they handle better and react faster to your commands. Do you think keeping Jadgtigers effective is easy? No, it handles like ass and is slow as garden, meaning you need to baby sit it to keep it moving and in range while also being ready to reverse it at a moments notice.

Ostheer T3 has 3 big issues; The Jackson, the overpriced nature of T3, and the lack of viability of the StuG III Ausf G and the PIV Varient Ostwind.

This thread was bound to end up discussing the Jackson because it's one of the big 3 issues.

did some cleaning might have missed some. not awake yet though when am i ever.

/back on topic

As for discussion WHAT THE FUCK is a Jackson being discussed as if its in the same teir as a teir 3 ostheer unit???

also i voted no the stug currently isn't modeled after a tank destroyer if it were going to be id rather it being given cloaking and make it a lightly armored stealth anti tank gun over a traditional well armored tank destroyer that a stug 4 is "in game") (its armor doesn't have to compelty suck either.)

also i voted no the stug currently isn't modeled after a tank destroyer if it were going to be id rather it being given cloaking and make it a lightly armored stealth anti tank gun over a traditional well armored tank destroyer that a stug 4 is "in game") (its armor doesn't have to compelty suck either.)

Yeeeeeeeesssssssss.

Just to clarify, the stug III was made to be a TD. The Stug IV was.

1. Do not argue about history.
2. StuGIII is useless because of the map design, you want the exact same thing in another tier?
3. New content for free? I don't think so.

Yup. Ostheer desperately needs a reliable and affordable TD. That or just reduce the fuel cost for panther. It' not an affordable option in 1vs1 match ups.

Yeah this has been an issue for a very long time. one of the key reasons why the su85 got nerfed to shit. when coh 2 came out of the beta their was virtually no counter to the su85 and they had to reduce it speed to the point it feels very clunky.

We need the beta stug back. 640 hp 180 armour and 200/190/180 penetration