Schwerer so broken, will it be fixed in the upcoming patch?

How can you Axis ONLY players be so blind that the Schwerer just locks down fuel for allotted time? How can you defend this? The basic mechanic of cutting fuel off and aggressive play is part of the coh2 formula. I am sure if you play Wehrmacht, you have to constantly worry about your own fuel point, but OKW?

I cannot wait for that March patch, so OKW can be competitive and not easy win 90% of the time.

I didn't know that Ostheer got reduced fuel income, or that they couldn't lock down area's *cough* Oustruppen/CAS *cough*

Fortifying area's does take some amount of intelligence and knowledge of what shotblockers your dealing with as well as the importance of say covering a VP or covering a fuel point. The Schwer shouldn't kill tanks (no emplacment other than AT guns which have no AI power should), but it being able to stop infantry and light vehicles is no different than an Ostheer player spamming bunkers or a USF player spamming FP's.

Because they have not played against it a single time and have no slightest idea how it really works duuh.

Obviously this match didn't happen, all a dream.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/32127/spread-fear-with-katyusha-rocket-barrage

I didn't know that Ostheer got reduced fuel income, or that they couldn't lock down area's *cough* Oustruppen/CAS *cough*

Fortifying area's does take some amount of intelligence and knowledge of what shotblockers your dealing with as well as the importance of say covering a VP or covering a fuel point. The Schwer shouldn't kill tanks (no emplacment other than AT guns which have no AI power should), but it being able to stop infantry and light vehicles is no different than an Ostheer player spamming bunkers or a USF player spamming FP's.



Obviously this match didn't happen, all a dream.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/32127/spread-fear-with-katyusha-rocket-barrage

First off, the reduced income is supposed to be a DISADVANTAGE.
It shouldnt be like "oh hey, less fuel income, but cheap tech, resource conversion and one big fat truck to lock down your cutoff completely"

And your argument with bunkers or fp's is dumb beyond comprehension. The thing is that bunkers are only infantry suppressing mg's, have a very limited cone of fire and go down to 3 AT shots.

T4 truck however, has one big AOE, a medium tank penetrating gun and is very durable. AND it gives you access to the best infantry in the game, to the best light tank in the game, to the best mobile TD in the game (dont come with jackson) and to the Sturmtiger, which frankly, is balanced although a bit too expensive.

Simply moving an AT gun up like against a bunker DOESNT WORK REALISTICALLY. Your opponent has an army too (Schrecked Volks yay negate armor, and Obers which negate infantry).

From my 1v1 experience (which you dont have), aswell as 2v2 experience this thing is INCREDIBLY hard to kill, especially in conjunction with the med truck, which serves as a forward retreat and healing point. These two trucks ensure the OKW map control, but the thing is that they DONT NEED IT. You can have map control perfectly fine without these trucks. The trucks are a stupid bonus that is just unfair. It needs to be changed.

You want to remove OKW's trucks, and you think the reduced income isn't a disadvantage.

Okay

And the thing with Bunker and FP spam isn't that you can move one AT gun up and clear it, it's that you have multiple Bunkers and FP's all covering each other so you can't flank them while Rifles + rear's in the FP's can deal with any AT gun pushes.

Shutting down territory with defenses is part of the game, it's never not been part of the game. At this point it's stupid to argue being able to stop the capping of cut offs and fuel somehow makes things unfair when every faction is capable of it.

You want to remove OKW's trucks, and you think the reduced income isn't a disadvantage.

Okay

And the thing with Bunker and FP spam isn't that you can move one AT gun up and clear it, it's that you have multiple Bunkers and FP's all covering each other so you can't flank them while Rifles + rear's in the FP's can deal with any AT gun pushes.

Shutting down territory with defenses is part of the game, it's never not been part of the game. At this point it's stupid to argue being able to stop the capping of cut offs and fuel somehow makes things unfair when every faction is capable of it.

Lower income but cheaper tech and more powerful units. It's not lower income - nothing, it's lower income - best tech and best units.

I have 1400h with CoH2 and I saw bunkers, a saw sometimes 2 bunkers, but Ive never ever seen something what you are describing.


Wires, sandbags, flak emplacement, bunkers, mines - this is defense. It requires micro, tactic and planning.

Schwerer has nothing to do with those things.

Lower income but cheaper tech and more powerful units. It's not lower income - nothing, it's lower income - best tech and best units.

I have 1400h with CoH2 and I saw bunkers, a saw sometimes 2 bunkers, but Ive never ever seen something what you are describing.


Wires, sandbags, flak emplacement, bunkers, mines - this is defense. It requires micro, tactic and planning.

Schwerer has nothing to do with those things.

It actually happens in the very replay I posted like 10 minutes ago, and OKW's units are just expensive as every other factions units but more so due to the fuel reduction tacked on. OKW can get vehicles at the door faster with cheaper teching but replacing them becomes tricky if you lose them to fast.

Lower income has to come with some sort of thing to make up for it, since making a faction that's just objectively worse isn't very attractive.

and the flak emplacement is a joke, killed by any unit with grenades, mines don't require skill, demo's do, wire and sandbags are piss easy to use to cut off sectors.

Nothing defense related requires that much thinking, the Schwer is just the big daddy of defense but it still dies like any other emplacement. Get armor/indirect and play smart, the schwer will be no issue for you in that case.

Shutting down area's of the map is stupid easy as USF, I'm kind of shocked you haven't ever FP spammed.

It actually happens in the very replay I posted like 10 minutes ago, and OKW's units are just expensive as every other factions units but more so due to the fuel reduction tacked on. OKW can get vehicles at the door faster with cheaper teching but replacing them becomes tricky if you lose them to fast.

I ve watched it. So much fun

I did not see ANY defensive line.
4 random bunkers with MGs, easily taken down, no big deal and they were not covering each other.
But funny things... for the whole game none of you figured out that you can take forest VP as well
But the best part was around 43' when you teammate took forest ammo point and then walked through whole map to fight for city VP instead of taking forest VP I was crying when I saw that, really

Oh, and the leig was best indirect fire through whole game. Soviet mortart 1700 vs infantry, axis mortart 3400 (something around it) and leig... 4900 + damage vs vehicles
Leig, so bad.

And what's the point of this replay? Shooting with Katys?

I mean... You were facing true newbies.
Two of them without any prestige star, PzGrens blob, shooting with PzWefer at max range... One of them was high experienced guy but.... thousands games as OST and 21k in ladder in 2v2

Such team should be beaten around 15-20min with rushing for fuel, but since you even did not figure out that you may take forest VP which was unsecured through entire game...

Im sorry, but this replay is crap, although I admit I was laughting when I saw what your friend did. He's in the forest, VP is unsecured, he's walking through whole map to fight for city VP

Let me copy this to replay site


Laugh before going to sleep is always a good think, thanks for it!

Lol did Alex just compare a bunker with Schwerer?

I ve watched it. So much fun

I did not see ANY defensive line.
4 random bunkers with MGs, easily taken down, no big deal and they were not covering each other.
But funny things... for the whole game none of you figured out that you can take forest VP as well
But the best part was around 43' when you teammate took forest ammo point and then walked through whole map to fight for city VP instead of taking forest VP I was crying when I saw that, really

Oh, and the leig was best indirect fire through whole game. Soviet mortart 1700 vs infantry, axis mortart 3400 (something around it) and leig... 4900 + damage vs vehicles
Leig, so bad.

And what's the point of this replay? Shooting with Katys?

I mean... You were facing true newbies.
Two of them without any prestige star, PzGrens blob, shooting with PzWefer at max range... One of them was high experienced guy but.... thousands games as OST and 21k in ladder in 2v2

Such team should be beaten around 15-20min with rushing for fuel, but since you even did not figure out that you may take forest VP which was unsecured through entire game...

Im sorry, but this replay is crap, although I admit I was laughting when I saw what your friend did. He's in the forest, VP is unsecured, he's walking through whole map to fight for city VP

Let me copy this to replay site


Laugh before going to sleep is always a good think, thanks for it!

We decided at the start of the game not to contest the forest because the forest on that map is cancer and none of us like playing around in it. On that map city + middle is far more important than forest, and the best way to lose is bogging yourself down in a fight over it.

The point is the Schwer wasn't an issue at all and even though they played like campers covering everything in bunkers (they got more than 4) and digging in hard they still lost, which goes directly against your earlier claim that such play is impossible to beat.

And they made far more mortars than we did, and the dude had 3 LeiG's at point, obviously such spam won out for them in the end right? MVGame

Lol did Alex just compare a bunker with Schwerer?

If your issue is that the Schwer can lock down parts of the map, then why is that not okay but it's fine to just spam bunkers and other stuff to lock down parts of the map?

Logically if your think turtling with the Schwer is cheap, wouldn't you also say bunker spam or FP spam is cheap to?

If you issue is that the Schwer can lock down parts of the map, then why is that not okay but it's fine to just spam bunkers and other stuff to lock down parts of the map?

Logically if your think turtling with the Schwer is cheap, wouldn't you also say bunker spam or FP spam is cheap to?

Schwerer costs only 200 mp and 80 fuel and part of your main progression. 4+ bunkers cost upwards of 600 MP, plus munitions for the MG.

I didn't know that Ostheer got reduced fuel income, or that they couldn't lock down area's *cough* Oustruppen/CAS *cough*

Fortifying area's does take some amount of intelligence and knowledge of what shotblockers your dealing with as well as the importance of say covering a VP or covering a fuel point. The Schwer shouldn't kill tanks (no emplacment other than AT guns which have no AI power should), but it being able to stop infantry and light vehicles is no different than an Ostheer player spamming bunkers or a USF player spamming FP's.

What an argument. Much wow.
OKW's fuel DISADVANTAGE is intended to COMPENSATE for their SUPER-GOOD units; Walking Stuka (Best arty in game), Obersoldatten, 5 minute puma/flakHT etc. Oh and don't forget, FIVE LEVELS OF VET. There's not really any point in giving them a fuel disadvantage if they can lock down one area of the map with a building that also gives them access to Obers, Panther, Luchs, while fighting on the other side with a huge blob.

Also, comparing Bunkers/FPs to T3 buidling? Bunkers don't have a 360 degree rotatable gun that PIERCES armor. They AREN'T TECH. They DON'T give you access to PANTHERS, OBERS etc.

You sir, are a special kind of stupid.

We decided at the start of the game not to contest the forest because the forest on that map is cancer and none of us like playing around in it. On that map city + middle is far more important than forest, and the best way to lose is bogging yourself down in a fight over it.

The point is the Schwer wasn't an issue at all and even though they played like campers covering everything in bunkers (they got more than 4) and digging in hard they still lost, which goes directly against your earlier claim that such play is impossible to beat.

And they made far more mortars than we did, and the dude had 3 LeiG's at point, obviously such spam won out for them in the end right? MVGame

Its not about splitting troops to fight in forest. Its about sending one squad to cap for better VP drain. Your explenation why you did not take forest with single squad is amazing.

Digging hard? I saw few bunkers. Thats all. You dont know what digging hard means. I will show you someday in replay.

So 3 leig vs 10 ost mortars through entire game and leig still did better.

What an argument. Much wow.
OKW's fuel DISADVANTAGE is intended to COMPENSATE for their SUPER-GOOD units; Walking Stuka (Best arty in game), Obersoldatten, 5 minute puma/flakHT etc. Oh and don't forget, FIVE LEVELS OF VET. There's not really any point in giving them a fuel disadvantage if they can lock down one area of the map with a building that also gives them access to Obers, Panther, Luchs, while fighting on the other side with a huge blob.

Also, comparing Bunkers/FPs to T3 buidling? Bunkers don't have a 360 degree rotatable gun that PIERCES armor. They AREN'T TECH. They DON'T give you access to PANTHERS, OBERS etc.

You sir, are a special kind of stupid.

5 minute puma/flakHT requires you to convert almost instantly and begin converting to fuel, which is pretty much suicide so I'm not even going to touch that.

The fuel disadvantage is intended to encourage unit preservation, and balance the fact that you can salvage wrecks/abandoned crew weapons as OKW. It is what justifies the quick teching as well (but USF has this to so go figure).

OKW's unit's aren't magically ~better~ than all the other factions units. Volks are worse than cons and rifles, light vehicles die fairly easy, ect. Most of the time the only 2 units people have issues with is the Panther and Obers, but I think everyone agrees that Obers are BS and need a fix, while the Panther is just a case of people not understanding how large of an investment a Panther is.

The point isn't that the Schwer is exactly the same as a Bunker/FP, but rather than it achieves the same effect as it. The Schwer shouldn't pen medium armor, but if it lost the ability to do so it's basically just a beefier FT that can't get decrewed (which is fine).

This argument initially started with the idea that locking down area's of the map is unfair, when that's fucking stupid to argue when every faction can do that.

Its not about splitting troops to fight in forest. Its about sending one squad to cap for better VP drain. Your explenation why you did not take forest with single squad is amazing.

Digging hard? I saw few bunkers. Thats all. You dont know what digging hard means. I will show you someday in replay.

So 3 leig vs 10 ost mortars through entire game and leig still did better.

LeiG did more damage because it hit a few tanks (it didn't actually kill any), but the Ostheer mortars were far far more annoying. Of course none of that matters because Axis indirect is a joke if you know how to counter it, which is exactly what happened lol.

Neither me or my friends/clan enjoy forest fighting, dem retreat paths and water. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but still fuck forest.

T-34/76 deal more damage to tanks than it,
can move,
similar range to it,
instantly killing squad sometimes,

I suppose T-34/76 is even more OP than it, by your logic

Show Spoiler

Actually i'm pretty sure the schwerer deals more damage than the t-34 even though it is an anti-aircraft gun because of the DPS.... it will quickly grind down a tank to nothing.

You are amazing. You are saying that leig did more damage cause of hitting tanks but I said that it did more damage against infantry as well.

Why are you saying about fighting in the forest? One unit to cap vp for better drain has nothing to do with fighting especially if you are talking ammo and then go to fight with this one squad for left vp when right vp is just next to

And no, except okw none other faction can lock down sector so easily. Soviets even dont have a bunkers so it this case locking down sector with wires, mines, demos is way more expensive and micro intensive. And the schwerer is still better than huge locking down operation from Soviets.

Come on dude, even if it were THAT BAD (which it is not), they still have a good 2 weeks to balance it out.

When YOU are saying "it won't be that bad", I feel shivers along my spine....

The SchwPzHq is a very high risk high reward unit.

It has it's pros and it's cons.

Pros:

- Denies a large area to enemy inf and light to medium tanks.
- Can shoot planes
- Has a very good penetration and does a very good amount of suppression + damage.


Cons:

- Costs 80 Fuel which is a hell of a lot for OKW.
- Can be easily destroyed while building up which leads the OKW player into very serious problems.
- While die very fast under mortar fire (especially 120mm).
- Can shoot only at one place at once.
- Defenseless against AT guns.


There are ways to counter an aggressive SchwPzHq. Soviets are definetly not suffering as much against it as some players here try to claim. I quote myself again if I say that the problem of the soviet players is that most of them try to Conspam into IS-2 or T34/85. Sure, there are no counters with this strategy but guess what? The motherland gave you 4 buildings your engineers can build! Sov T2 counters the SchwPzHq hard and in fact T2 is a very good way to deal against OKW overall.

USF has a harder time against it but it also has counters to it, e.g. all artillery, smoke, splitting up troops, satchels, bazookas in some way, jacksons...

Maybe the SchwPzHq needs a nerf but I also think that many players are just so strict in their meta every game that they don't see the counters.

The SchwPzHq is something that needs tactics to be defeated which 95% of the playerbase seem to lack. It seems that a unit that can't be countered with a stupid blob A-moving is op these days.

...Pffff....
Ok...

How to fight against the Flack Hq in a simple way (by JohnnyB):

1. Are you playing with USF? Fine. Go eat a hotdog first (to catch strength). Put a nice bottle of Coke near your keyboard and go automatch.(....) blah blah blah.... your OKW opponent(s) build a Fhq. You want to tackle it. Look at your army. Do you have a 57 mm AT? No? Then BUILD ONE OR TWO, STUPID! Place them in such way to have that Fhq in range. You don't see it because you are a brave soldier and don't have maphack and FOW doesn't allow you to see it? Fear not, because YOU HAVE THE ATTACK GROUND FEATURE. Shoot the position of Fhq with your AT gun(s) and place some units around them for protections. Flack AA, Hmgs, riflemen, stuart, WHATEVER YOU WANT. Case closed. Go and win that match.

2. Are you playing with soviets? Ok you damn' commie, if you don't have solutions than it means you bought this game yesterday. But I will still help you. Start with that T2 and you will have ZIS in no time. Proceed as in point 1 (maxims will do a wonderfull job for rpotecting your gun(s)). Not enough, still to hard for you? Fine! Chose a doctrine with 120 mm mortars and bomb the hell out of that building. You started with T1? Than for you and for incompetent USF player above is the same advice: you don't have to be so desperate to kill that T4 from minute one. AVOID IT! WITH ONE FUEL POINT SECURED OKW WILL STILL GET LESS FUEL THAN YOU GET! Take the rest of territory untill you are able to tech in order to have those nice AT guns or enough CPs for 120 mortars (in soviet case) and take down that Fhq.

I cannot wait for that March patch, so OKW can be competitive and not easy win 90% of the time.

I am verry verry curious what the patch will bring, though I am sure it won't be balance (even if its main focus will be balance). At most it will bring payback for people feeling so offensed by OKW "OPness". But not balance .

Lower income but cheaper tech and more powerful units. It's not lower income - nothing, it's lower income - best tech and best units.

I have 1400h with CoH2 and I saw bunkers, a saw sometimes 2 bunkers, but Ive never ever seen something what you are describing.


Wires, sandbags, flak emplacement, bunkers, mines - this is defense. It requires micro, tactic and planning.

Schwerer has nothing to do with those things.

Alex is describing 4vs4 were bunker spam is a thing, and it only adds to the pain of Allied game, bunker spams and Schwerer. Still its low tier stuff i guess (because I am low tier and it there).

...Pffff....
Ok...

How to fight against the Flack Hq in a simple way (by JohnnyB):

1. Are you playing with USF? Fine. Go eat a hotdog first (to catch strength). Put a nice bottle of Coke near your keyboard and go automatch.(....) blah blah blah.... your OKW opponent(s) build a Fhq. You want to tackle it. Look at your army. Do you have a 57 mm AT? No? Then BUILD ONE OR TWO, STUPID! Place them in such way to have that Fhq in range. You don't see it because you are a brave soldier and don't have maphack and FOW doesn't allow you to see it? Fear not, because YOU HAVE THE ATTACK GROUND FEATURE. Shoot the position of Fhq with your AT gun(s) and place some units around them for protections. Flack AA, Hmgs, riflemen, stuart, WHATEVER YOU WANT. Case closed. Go and win that match.

There is a problem with your usf guide. How im supposed to use ground attack if schwerer is behind shot blocker?
Protect with AA and hmg? You do realize that at gun denies hmg and aa + hmg denies at gun?
You gonna say, play airborne, im gonna say, its broken to get doctrine to counter building.

In theory. South spawn for usf on faymonville. Okw wires blocking stone Wall, schwerer behind building in the middle, covered by pak43 almost in base.

So you said at guns, aye?