Schwerer so broken, will it be fixed in the upcoming patch?

it's called an AT gun.

why do ppl keep assuming ppl are complaining about nooby agressive schwerer? i am sure OP was but don't think most ppl are.

anyway, as much as i dont like this shit from design perspective, maps have a lot to do with frustrating schwerer.

I am done arguing with Alexzandvar directly. I will instead resort to taking his statements to their logical extremes.

Alexzandvar: "Soviet Union desperately needs a non doctrinal 360 degree AoE building with a huge radius that can damage tanks and insta supress infantry."

Alexzandvar: "Stats don't really matter in this game. If a unit exists for a long time it automatically becomes balanced even though there haven't been any balance patches in a long time. Furthermore, if a unit can be damaged with other units, said unit automatically becomes balanced and no debate about the precise worth and usability of unit needs to take place."

I don't think it should pen tanks, Iv said that like a million times, idiot.

And the Schwer can be countered, or else I'm pretty sure win rates between Axis and Allies wouldn't be nearly as even as they are in tournaments or other high skill settings.

I've tried that and it doesn't really help.

You don't actually play OKW, like, have never once played it so I assume your understanding of the faction and it's strengths and weakness is probably not that good.

How does this justify Schwerer?

Being able to deny territory can be achieved multiple ways and it is no more inherently cheesy to do it with a Schwer than to do it with anything else.

I can't believe people are actually this dense; stopping your opponent from being able to cap points through intelligent use of defenses has been in the game since day 1 so why is the Schwer such an issue?

why do ppl keep assuming ppl are complaining about nooby agressive schwerer? i am sure OP was but don't think most ppl are.

This is a self contradicting statement.

I can't believe people are actually this dense; stopping your opponent from being able to cap points through intelligent use of defenses has been in the game since day 1 so why is the Schwer such an issue?

Bunker, wires, mines, flak emplacement - those are defensive structures not Schwerer.

You don't actually play OKW, like, have never once played it so I assume your understanding of the faction and it's strengths and weakness is probably not that good.

Wow, that from the guy who argues that by watching and analyzing replays you can get an equally good understanding of game balance as people who have played tons of matches on high ranks?

I don't think you are in a position to pull the "your opinion is less valid because you didn't play so much"-card.

Additionally, you never shy away from blaming others for not being argumentative and resorting to personal attacks against you... *cough*

I don't think it should pen tanks, Iv said that like a million times, idiot

I can't believe people are actually this dense; stopping your opponent from being able to cap points through intelligent use of defenses has been in the game since day 1 so why is the Schwer such an issue?

I love it how you are comparing demos to Schwerer now, demos disappear after explosion..

Schwerer is a no brainer building, place it on fuel. The building does not require "intelligent" thought process.

Schwerer guarantees fuel point for OKW until it is destroyed (my combined arms & Tanks), for Wher, Soviets and USF constantly worry about fuel cut offs.

Bunker, wires, mines, flak emplacement - those are defensive structures not Schwerer.

The Schwer is a defensive emplacement that also counts as a tech building. A thing can have multiple roles, or do you think the major is only a forward retreat point and not a unit

Wow, that from the guy who argues that by watching and analyzing replays you can get an equally good understanding of game balance as people who have played tons of matches on high ranks?

I don't think you are in a position to pull the "your opinion is less valid because you didn't play so much"-card.

Additionally, you never shys away from blaming others for not being argumentative and resorting to personal attacks against you... *cough*

There is a marked difference between rank shaming and telling someone off because they have never played the faction they are talking about.

Am I high ranked with every faction? Fuck no. But I have at least played every faction.

I love it how you are comparing demos to Schwerer now, demos disappear after explosion..

Schwerer is a no brainer building, place it on fuel. The building does not require "intelligent" thought process.

Schwerer guarantees fuel point for OKW until it is destroyed (my combined arms & Tanks), for Wher, Soviets and USF constantly worry about fuel cut offs.

Place it directly on a fuel point and see how far you get, placing a Schwer way out in the open were it's super easy to get at makes it very easy to kill.

If an opponent uses shot blockers intelligently and places it smart than there is zero reason he should not be awarded for doing so.

And you should have combined arms anyway, or do you only ever make mortars, AT guns and tanks because your opponent made a Schwer

I don't think it should pen tanks, Iv said that like a million times, idiot.

Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't, but it does at the moment. We are here to discuss the Schwerer's effectiveness as it is in the game at the moment, not as it is in your head.

Also, name calling? Really? Sigh.

According to Alexzandvar's logic about Schewer, all nerfed units in the past, ISU, Clown car, Panther spam and many other units in fact were fine cause people were posting way to counter it

There is a marked difference between rank shaming and telling someone off because they have never played the faction they are talking about.

Am I high ranked with every faction? Fuck no. But I have at least played every faction.

Thank you for bolding that part, so we humble creatures may understand your complex argument.

Maybe drChengele has analyzed tons and tons of pro replays, and is now as enlightened as you when it comes to balance discussions?

Oh and can you please show us an example of "intelligent Schwerer placement pro play" that is not done the same way by ~90% of decent OkW players who play the given map? Most people should be capable of understanding that "placing it in the open" might not be such a good idea.

I think the whole concept is really cheesy, and while it may fulfill a role for OKW, it would be really cool if there would be some less static and 'map-locking' options for OKW then this boring truck, which is always a reminder of CoH- Brits to me.

The old 88 was much more interesting and fun (not connected to how it would fit into CoH2 OKW, just saying that concept-wise it was much more interesting and should be in CoH2).

After many hours of rendering on top notch render farms, our most advanced data analytics experts bring you this ultra sophisticated diagram that will shed some light on why placing your Schwerer behind cover is a very good idea.

Essentially it is a rather large gamble to expose your AT guns so far into the field, which T4 placement behind cover forces.

You are exposing your AT guns to Obers (which WILL be on the field if the T4 is built). The blue line shows how far from the base sector Obers must be to be able to shoot at the AT gun.

If you replace "at gun" with Jackson or Sherman, feel free to replace "ober line" with "volksschreck line" as well and the argument remains identical.

Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't, but it does at the moment. We are here to discuss the Schwerer's effectiveness as it is in the game at the moment, not as it is in your head.

Also, name calling? Really? Sigh.

You just refused to actually discuss anything and resort to strawman, so you can see why I wasn't particularly nice.

The Schwer right now is a tad overeffective because of DPS to mediums, other than that it doesn't need a change (except the range indicator actually indicating the goddamn range).

According to Alexzandvar's logic about Schewer, all nerfed units in the past, ISU, Clown car, Panther spam and many other units in fact were fine cause people were posting way to counter it

Because said units were not nearly as integral to said factions design as the Schwer is, people constantly forget how important it is, and the fact that if it was nearly as OP as people say it is the win rates for OKW in skilled face offs would be far, far higher than they actually are.

Because said units were not nearly as integral to said factions design as the Schwer is, people constantly forget how important it is, and the fact that if it was nearly as OP as people say it is the win rates for OKW in skilled face offs would be far, far higher than they actually are.

It was important when OKW got 200% from points with trucks. Now it's not that important.

It was important when OKW got 200% from points with trucks. Now it's not that important.

It was also the very first truck OKW made, so how much more would you like to have a 6 minute Schwer

Bringing up Alpha stuff is pointless, OKW has the Schwer like it is now because of the design of the faction; forward based to make up for the lack of mobility in it's forces.

I have no issues killing Schweres as US with an early AT gun and/or Sherman.

That's why OKW has weakness in resourscer income, but has cheap tech, powerful units and insane vet 5. No need for ultra bunker a ka schwerer.

Relic decides upon that and not you. OKW gets utility buildings through teching that can be placed on the battlefield in order to represent the high risk & high reward design of the faction.
Rather then nerfing the new factions features (free units as USF, utility buildings as OKW) the vanilla factions should get also unique mechanics and forward retreat points.

Off map arty?
Recon - 120 ammo for one + ammo for recon - no late game.
Mechanized - 8CP, no late-game.
Rifle Company - only decrew.
Armor/Infantry - you cant call it barrage even, waste of muni, no recon to spot.

Just because you fail to utilize commanders & abilities they are not bad. Decrewing a pak43 and then rushing it with tanks in order to destroy it is perfectly valid and every good soviet player does so frequently with the incendiary barrage. I did the same using white phosphour as USF and it was used against me. I learned this trick when playing against PauL.ad.

But the last sentence is amazing.
Volks+Obers+Panther which is the case in 70% of the OKW games + pak43 is called combined arms by you. Are you serious?

I have never stated this unit combination as a true combined army combo. A combined arms army holds counters to every threat. Unfortunately Ostheer & Soviets are better designed in that way.

Get a Scott, owned by Panther.
Get a Jackson, owned by Volks.

The person with the better micro wins in this case. Scotts to deal with schreck blobs and Jacksons to deal with panthers. USF need however more micro in that case because its harder to control 4-5 mediums with poor health. Easier early game, harder late game = USF. Late game is however more important so it feels like USF is really sanctioned compared to other factions, if you have the micro however, they are just as rewarding as other factions.

Early Sherman is the best way to fight agasint OKW, then a second one and pray to RNG god for wipes.
Once Panther is there, Shermans are useless, Pak43 is covering Panther and most of the time it's gg.

Destroy the pak43 with offmap arty, then destroy the panther with jacksons. For every okw tank you have at least 2 medium tanks as usf.

US Forces have so many holes in design that it's amazing they are playable faction.
Versus Ostheer they are deadly.
Versus OKW they are pudding.
That's just incredible bad design.

They are just designed in a way you don't like, there are plenty of players who main the USF faction and have fun doing so, if you find them so flawed, why do you keep playing them?

And like I said before, you are OKW hero, not CoH2 objective player. You have around 50-60 games as USF and hundreds as OKW so how can yoy make objective statement? You can't.

If I'm a OKW hero, then you are likewise a USF hero. Like I stated, focus on arguments not this Ad Hominem bullshit.

It was important when OKW got 200% from points with trucks. Now it's not that important.

In the alpha OKW got 100 % from points with trucks and 33 % from every other points. The Schwere Panzer HQ was t3 and sometimes the first building on the field.
Schwere Panzer HQ was buffed after WFA release because you could simply walk with one baiting squad up and finish it with a second bazooka/ captain squad, reducing the huge ass canon on the Schwerer Panzer HQ to a potato cannon.

http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/67-coh-2-changelog?p=66861#post66861

The biggest change to the OKW were to the Base Building Flak Gun. Currently the building does not feel very threatening to infantry and light vehicles (which it should feel like) We are seeing at the high level players always setting up their truck inside their base because it is too much of a liability to put it anywhere else.

Schwerer Panzer HQ 3.7cm flak gun
Damage increased from 20 to 40
Penetration increased from 35 to 45
Range increased from 40 to 45
Suppression increased from 0 to 0.3
Nearby Suppression multiplier increased from 0 to 0.8
Nearby Suppression radius increased from 0 to 15
AOE increased from 2 to 4
Rate of fire increased from 2 to 4

As you see the Schwere Panzer HQ is supposed to be a threat ON the battlefield.
In this thread various hints have been giving how to deal with it and I even posted a replay of high level play. So you either adapt or remain a crying baby.

Show Spoiler

You play almost exclusively OKW, so there is no point talking with you

Relic decides upon that and not you. OKW gets utility buildings through teching that can be placed on the battlefield in order to represent the high risk & high reward design of the faction.
Rather then nerfing the new factions features (free units as USF, utility buildings as OKW) the vanilla factions should get also unique mechanics and forward retreat points.

The person with the better micro wins in this case. Scotts to deal with schreck blobs and Jacksons to deal with panthers. USF need however more micro in that case because its harder to control 4-5 mediums with poor health. Easier early game, harder late game = USF. Late game is however more important so it feels like USF is really sanctioned compared to other factions, if you have the micro however, they are just as rewarding as other factions.

Destroy the pak43 with offmap arty, then destroy the panther with jacksons. For every okw tank you have at least 2 medium tanks as usf.

They are just designed in a way you don't like, there are plenty of players who main the USF faction and have fun doing so, if you find them so flawed, why do you keep playing them?


As you see the Schwere Panzer HQ is supposed to be a threat ON the battlefield.
.

The new faction's tech speed should be in line with Vanilla and not the other way around. The simple fact is the new faction tech much faster than the Vanilla factions.

And no, Vanilla factions DO NOT need a forward HQ. The whole mechanic is dumb.

USF micro intensive late game play highlight how easy it is to play with heavy armor and A-attack shrek blob. KT can absorb damage parked at the hill while blobs of infantry move left and right. Obers by themselves just have to sit behind cover and rape everything.

Shwerer can have it's gun, but the gun shouldn't be free or penetrate medium armor so effectively.

We play both factions, nobody is a one man army like many of the Axis only players. We can easily see how broken things can get when you play by abusing Obers and fighting them.

You play almost exclusively OKW, so there is no point talking with you

Yes you are out of arguments.

Check my playercard, I play every faction, I just main OKW. I guess people like Romeo are also fanboys in your eyes. Just like you main the allies factions, so what you say to me applies also to you.

And no, Vanilla factions DO NOT need a forward HQ. The whole mechanic is dumb.

That's your opinion, I really like the mechanic and prefer the new factions over the old ones therefore. Since it won't be removed, vanilla factions also need that, because it's a huge advantage on large maps.

The new faction's tech speed should be in line with Vanilla and not the other way around. The simple fact is the new faction tech much faster than the Vanilla factions.

Yes, 10 minute shermans and 15 minute panthers are just stupid, yet I don't give players the fault but relic. Players usually will go for the easiest way to win.

USF micro intensive late game play highlight how easy it is to play with heavy armor and A-attack shrek blob.

Yes, schrecks need a long range accuracy nerf. It's just plain annoying and far too punishing when you lose a medium tank because you just moved to near to the fog of war.

Shwerer can have it's gun, but the gun shouldn't be free or penetrate medium armor so effectively.

If so, the gun should be controllable and not firing always at the first unit that enters the los. Since it becomes a upgrade/purchasable it should be treated like one and not just as a faction bonus.

We play both factions, nobody is a one man army like many of the Axis only players. We can easily see how broken things can get when you play by abusing Obers and fighting them.

I stated several times that Obers lmg34 needs a nerf and the dps needs to be spread equally among the squad. One dropped lmg34 turns any squad into a killing machine.