ostheer CAS overperforming.

This is a problem in 1v1, too? I wholeheartedly agree about CAS commander being OP in 2v2+ though.

The supposed drawback of lesser amount of tanks might as well be non existent in 2v2+.

35 muni single run recon plane. death from above in terms of kamikaze attacks.
60 muni suppressing run, which can suppress/pin, using AOE suppression, the entire army in one screen size worth.
110 muni JU87-AT Strafe that has very good chance of destroying any tanks/vehicles below 800hp.
160 muni stuka dive bomb artillery nullifier.

Apparent counter, AA units don't work.

So gimmicky and unfun to play against.

Just rubbish. ALL planes can crash, but they can crash on either side so it is not really a bonus.

The AT strafe won't hit against any competent player, and even if it hits it surely doesn't destroy "any tank below 800 hp". I have watched actually Fahu yesterday play against some guy who didn't even move his vehicles out of the AT strafe and they all survived multiple times. They were Motor Howitzer Carriages and Jacksons which have only 480 HP and they survived.

Stuka destroys artillery, fine, that is its role, destroy static targets. Artillery in this game is terribly easy to destroy in general, and it is not the only ability that does it.

I use CAS a lot so let me break it down:

I refuse to use that gay ass commander and face it almost always so ll counter your arguments and I believe you are talking about 2v2+ at least.

CAS is primarily used for (at least in my case) to counter Artillery happy allied players.

The JU-87 and its 37mm AT strafe is one pass and a skillshot and has a very long cooldown
(I believe its 80s)

just counters USF really. 'skillshot'... there is nothing remotely resembling skill in this doc

This being the case unless your tank is right on the edge of the map you normally wont have trouble dodging it if your micro is at least decent.

really? No one can dodge AT strafe and stuka divebomb 100% of the time when they come in every minute. and that is no exaggeration when approaching lategame. and of course, one mistake means a tank gone at least. for what? because axis player has bothered to click twice.

In team setups however, It is essential to have to prevent B-4 spamming cheese.

true

The AI strafe is IMO the strongest part of the doctrine as it lets you spam LMG's and win every engagement vs US rifle spam. While this is a cheesy solution It is currently one of the only effective ones as boxes are now not worth the doctrine choice if you discount the OKW fuel boosting.
(Also a cheese strat)

nope, ostheer in 2v2 is not nearly as handicapped as they are in 1v1, almost not handicapped i'll say. in 3v3? what handicap?

This is the only Wehrmacht doctrine that gets a AI strafe other than Assault support and that is also now a joke due to the nerfs to the Opal truck and tiger just not being the tank it used to be.

Fuel to muni transfer is the same as its always been, You are cutting tanks on a faction with already high fuel costs.

Opel blitz truck was a joke before the nerf. now it gives sizeable bonus to your industry for only 300mp. the whole opel blitz and caches are op in 2v2+ anyway

And finally the effective stuka dive bomb.

At the end of the day When playing on a team you must have it equipped for B4's or Arty spam.

true

Shock rifle frontline counters this very well, As well as good kat truck play.
ISU-152 if cared for properly will absolutely shit on this as he wont have many tanks if any.

nope. one panther can make 3 t34/shermans think twice before being bold. by the time is2 or isu comes out, it is no challenge for axis to have paks and OKW tanks to keep is2/isu in check.

If you must infantry blob vs this, the AI strafe can be dodged so its not a auto win 1 click like the
Opal one is.

For USF Scotts work great, As well as bulldozer Shermans. HE Shermans can work too.

And demo's are generally very effective vs this type of play.

is there any time when well used sherman or demo don't work?

FHQ and B-4 in team games are very unfun to play against as well when you don't have proper counters at your disposal. Especially against a coordinated team. The fact that B-4 Has the potential to 1 shot a JT,KT,TA is broken since it has precision strike and is smokeless.

Oh. so you know the feeling. add the 'feeling of having no counter what so ever' and you know what it feels like to encounter CAS.

Wish LeFH was even close to being as good since it costs the same its kinda a joke.


This is also correct the 110 MU 37mm strafe will 1 shot Fixed guns 95% of the time (It can fail due to it being on a weird hill incline or behind trees or a building)

You don't need this really.
CAS AT strafe will destroy any arty effortlessly, so while before you had to use 190 mun for it, now you need just 140 to make 600mp go bye bye.

Such balance, much relic.

Just tested in cheatmod, AT strafe reduce ML20 into 60% health, regardless the angle of the strafe (10/10 trial). Stop giving false information.

Just rubbish. ALL planes can crash, but they can crash on either side so it is not really a bonus.

you know you can choose the path in which the plane will take?

The AT strafe won't hit against any competent player,

that is like saying any decent player won't let his tiger get flanked. its weightless. mind you, i dodge most of the AT strafe and stuka when i get my game on. so this is not a rash/in the moment rant.

and even if it hits it surely doesn't destroy "any tank below 800 hp". I have watched actually Fahu yesterday play against some guy who didn't even move his vehicles out of the AT strafe and they all survived multiple times. They were Motor Howitzer Carriages and Jacksons which have only 480 HP and they survived.

really? because i actually did a controlled tests. anything other than an anecdote to back your statements up?

Stuka destroys artillery, fine, that is its role, destroy static targets. Artillery in this game is terribly easy to destroy in general, and it is not the only ability that does it.

i have problem with stuka dive bomb being in this commander.

I got CAS this year with MWNL and it easily became my favourite commander in 1v1 and 2v2.
Not because it is as batshit overpowered as OP wants to say but because it simply offers a playstyle I loved in vCoH that was lacking in CoH2 for so long. I speak about infantry only as Germans.

It's so annoying that it is nearly impssible atm to stay in the game without ultra heavy call ins such as KT/Tiger/IS2/Pershing (lol). Especially as Ost player it was 'Bring a Tiger or die' in EVERY SINGLE GAME.

Why? Because there is a USF blob of hell in every game facing USF. What do you want to do against it? MG42 is worthless. T3 is worthless because an Ostwind won't do anything against 3 Easy 8s and a P4 won't do much better. T4 is a joke so the single possibility to stand against USF is a Tiger in - I repeat - EVERY SINGLE GAME. It is a game of waiting and hoping that your enemy won't crush you until 11 CP.

CAS adds the possibility to stand against the blob without waiting for a heavy tank for the cost of having no tanks at all. That is the weak point. No medium or heavy armour, no tanks at all. Only T1 and T2 infantry. Panzergrens lose their AI power by upgrading to shrecks. Their Panzershreck is weaker than a OKW shreck and they die much easier because of lack of sustain. And they are your only AT with PaKs.

Recon flight is a single overflight with a very small radius. It is cheaper but it's not coming back unlike the Ostheer's other recon flights. The AT strafe is expensive and very VERY easy to dodge. It's a very small single line that does devastating damage. Everything outside that smale line won't take any damage. And unlike P47 the JU will neither chase your tanks nor even come back again.

IMO the real power of CAS comes from the AI strafe which is the main punisher against a blobbing player.
Because of the weak state of the MG42 it's the only viable chance to punish a blobbing player with the same skill at the moment.

Funny thing is, Wehr player can spam endless skill planes and there are no counter play to this in team games (60 fuel for HT or save it for Sherman?). AT strafe def kills multiple Jacksons at the same time for 110 muni.

Funny thing is, Wehr player can spam endless skill planes and there are no counter play to this in team games (60 fuel for HT or save it for Sherman?). AT strafe def kills multiple Jacksons at the same time for 110 muni.

Then dodge it.
The AT strafe will only hit a certain line that is announced by red smoke seconds before.

P47 has no smoke and will hunt all Axis tanks down even when they drive away for a very far range.

Just tested in cheatmod, AT strafe reduce ML20 into 60% health, regardless the angle of the strafe (10/10 trial). Stop giving false information.

Try the one which actually is used, B4.

Then dodge it.
The AT strafe will only hit a certain line that is announced by red smoke seconds before.

P47 has no smoke and will hunt all Axis tanks down even when they drive away for a very far range.

Really hard to do after you at a Faust while trying to punish the LMG blob. That one mistake has now cost you a Tank and it doesnt matter what Tank if its on the USF side it is now gone. Along with the MP used to acquire it. If that tank didnt get to at least vet1.5 by killing blobs your economy just got kicked in the nuts.

I think the CAS strafe should while cost half what a P47 costs do HALF of what a P47 does. And also not target anything but tanks.

When CAS was released the Strafe did about as much as a Panzerfaust. And not many people used it. Since the last event youll see it everyday in 1v1s. You better have Pro tank Micro and not take a single faust all game long or that tanks is erased at the push of a button and there is 0 you can do about it.

Try the one which actually is used, B4.

^ This
Even if it dose not one shot a ML20 you still have stuka dive bomb.

you know you can choose the path in which the plane will take?

Yeah but I cannot control when they are going to crash, so they can still crash anywhere on the map on that line. Might be at your side of the map, might be on mine.

that is like saying any decent player won't let his tiger get flanked. its weightless. mind you, i dodge most of the AT strafe and stuka when i get my game on. so this is not a rash/in the moment rant.

I have tried this ability so often and the enemy nearly always managed to move out of the way. This means most of the time it is just a waste of munition, so unless I am floating in munition (which is possible with this commander, but you could instead be also more conservative with your fuel transfer to get a tank and thus a more reliable alternative) I am going to think twice if I want to put much hope into this ability.

really? because i actually did a controlled tests. anything other than an anecdote to back your statements up?

There is the past broadcast on Fahus Stream

http://www.twitch.tv/gamegamblers/b/633562131

There is one instance at around 41:50, there were more situations but I don't want to look them now all up.

Unless you can show some evidence of your "controlled test" it remains not more than an anecdote either.

i have problem with stuka dive bomb being in this commander.

Ok.

I use CAS a lot so let me break it down:

CAS is primarily used for (at least in my case) to counter Artillery happy allied players.

The JU-87 and its 37mm AT strafe is one pass and a skillshot and has a very long cooldown
(I believe its 80s)

This being the case unless your tank is right on the edge of the map you normally wont have trouble dodging it if your micro is at least decent.
In team setups however, It is essential to have to prevent B-4 spamming cheese.

The AI strafe is IMO the strongest part of the doctrine as it lets you spam LMG's and win every engagement vs US rifle spam. While this is a cheesy solution It is currently one of the only effective ones as boxes are now not worth the doctrine choice if you discount the OKW fuel boosting.
(Also a cheese strat)

This is the only Wehrmacht doctrine that gets a AI strafe other than Assault support and that is also now a joke due to the nerfs to the Opal truck and tiger just not being the tank it used to be.

Fuel to muni transfer is the same as its always been, You are cutting tanks on a faction with already high fuel costs.

And finally the effective stuka dive bomb.

At the end of the day When playing on a team you must have it equipped for B4's or Arty spam.

Shock rifle frontline counters this very well, As well as good kat truck play.
ISU-152 if cared for properly will absolutely shit on this as he wont have many tanks if any.

If you must infantry blob vs this, the AI strafe can be dodged so its not a auto win 1 click like the
Opal one is.

For USF Scotts work great, As well as bulldozer Shermans. HE Shermans can work too.

And demo's are generally very effective vs this type of play.



FHQ and B-4 in team games are very unfun to play against as well when you don't have proper counters at your disposal. Especially against a coordinated team. The fact that B-4 Has the potential to 1 shot a JT,KT,TA is broken since it has precision strike and is smokeless.

Wish LeFH was even close to being as good since it costs the same its kinda a joke.


This is also correct the 110 MU 37mm strafe will 1 shot Fixed guns 95% of the time (It can fail due to it being on a weird hill incline or behind trees or a building)

I understand where you're coming from in terms of countering allied cheese in team games, but CAS is seeing really high use in 1v1s too. I think the flexibility of the doctrine and the fact that EVERY commander ability is useful makes it stand out from others. It supports all stages of the game and a variety of strategies (use muni transfer to rush lmgs, use air support in place of tanks, or just use air to support armor). It's not to say that the doctrine is unbeatable or anything, but I think it's fairly forgiving due to WM's strength with basically unlimited munitions.

@gokkel

saw the 41:50 mark. had to look at the very edge of the camera but it is possible to see first like 90% of the payload was hitting the building... Fahu's fault, nothing else.

coh2 official forum thread.

i basically said everything i have to say about the commander in this thread. including the test results and the method i used. sorry i dont got the replay file but you are welcome to test it yourself to see if i am exaggerating or whatever.

p.s. calling in the plane so it is going from your base to their base, then btw time plane is in range of the enemy aa, its crash course is due on enemies' heads.

I think the flexibility of the doctrine and the fact that EVERY commander ability is useful makes it stand out from others.

Then its one of the only doctrines that works correctly.

Considering this doctrine only relies on infantry because of all the fuel getting coverted into munitions, it won't have any armor out unless the game lasts till the late game.
This gives you a lot of breathing space and you will only need to invest into AI.
Like, when I use it I often see these noobs build AT for no reason. And when I play against it I just spam AI, and if played right (meaning avoiding getting blobs caught by strafe runs), you will win because he will have to invest into AT, and you don't. Self-propelled howitzers and armored vechiles like the M8A1 Howitzer is very good counters to this doctrine, all you need to do is to make sure to avoid any AT strafes, which is easy. Whenever you see the recon plane, just move them.

Doctrine doesn't need nerf. You need the right units

Considering this doctrine only relies on infantry because of all the fuel getting coverted into munitions, it won't have any armor out unless the game lasts till the late game.
This gives you a lot of breathing space and you will only need to invest into AI.
Like, when I use it I often see these noobs build AT for no reason. And when I play against it I just spam AI, and if played right (meaning avoiding getting blobs caught by strafe runs), you will win because he will have to invest into AT, and you don't. Self-propelled howitzers and armored vechiles like the M8A1 Howitzer is very good counters to this doctrine, all you need to do is to make sure to avoid any AT strafes, which is easy. Whenever you see the recon plane, just move them.

Doctrine doesn't need nerf. You need the right units

I admire this commander's uniqueness. and although i cant speak of 1v1 balance myself, your argument makes sense in 1v1 setting.

but i think the major problem of this commander is in 2v2+, where supposed counterplay don't exist.

Yes lets get rid of one of the few unique commanders in the game so shit is even more cookie cutter than it was already.

The power of CAS isn't the skill planes, it's the munitions that actually allow you to be liberal with getting shreks and LMGs.

If you see a recon run, run! Keep your units spread out to prevent good strafing opportunities.

Fighting CAS is a micro test, and ironically USF has the best counter to this doctrine in the game in the form of the USF AA HT.

I admire this commander's uniqueness. and although i cant speak of 1v1 balance myself, your argument makes sense in 1v1 setting.

but i think the major problem of this commander is in 2v2+, where supposed counterplay don't exist.

Counter-play still dose exist He won't have tanks thats 1 less players worth of tanks.

Buy some kat trucks.

Counter-play still dose exist He won't have tanks thats 1 less players worth of tanks.

Buy some kat trucks.

axis have best infantry. they have best handheld AT and AI. they have best ATG. they have the best aoe suppression unit.

when i see 3 panthers, it is a huge deal. because i need my tanks to counter axis infantries. when i see 5 jacksons, i overjoy with relief, because my infantry can already deal with allies infantry and more.

all the allies have that is obviously in their favour is overall late game artillery capability. which a big part of it is from well used ml 20 and b4, which is nullified. so then we have katusha and priest. they are both really potent. however, relic's infinite wisdom introduced this uncounterable single pass at strafe which only needs 30% of its payload to connect to kill a 640hp medium tank. which means kat and priest cannot even afford to be scratched by this at strafe. and another brainchild of relic's brilliant wisdom, ambient building spawnable terminators! and axis by far has best tanks for quick in and out hits.

...
Fighting CAS is a micro test, and ironically USF has the best counter to this doctrine in the game in the form of the USF AA HT.

there you go again. i bet my left ball that you never tried M15 AAHT to counter these single passes. you need ground spotter to have it fire as soon as the plane comes into the map. on top of that, planes usually shoot their payload BEFORE it is in the map or as soon as it gets into the map.

there you go again. i bet my left ball that you never tried M15 AAHT to counter these single passes. you need ground spotter to have it fire as soon as the plane comes into the map. on top of that, planes usually shoot their payload BEFORE it is in the map or as soon as it gets into the map.

I have actually, and what its best at is shooting down the Recon planes so he can't get vision. Sometimes you get lucky and catch a plane before it can fire, but not always.

The perfect counter to CAS is moving your units. Not really any special units required.