Fixing Early Game USF vs Ost

I would like to discuss suggestions on the early game balance between USF and Ost. 1v1 and 2v2.

I'm assuming a couple of things:

1) There is a problem with balance in this area
2) Rifles outperform Grenadiers throughout the game, when considering upgrades and vanilla
3) USF ability to always stay a unit ahead of Ost early game (1 extra unit) due to not having to build etc
4) There is a problem with M20 and how early it arrives when compared to Ost teching costs and time it takes to field a Pak, when also considering point 1,2,3.

I would also like to discuss suggestions on how it can be fixed without making Rifleman nigh on useless, so please consider how nerfs/buffs to fix USF vs Ost may effect USF vs OKW, Sov vs Ost etc. I don't think nerfing Rifleman is a viable suggestion, as they are in a bad spot vs Obers etc late mid/late game as it currently stands.

They won't change it. Keep on dreaming, Relic will not change it. Why would they? People keep playing even after they complain and show tears on forums. Changing the USF teching system will take time and some serious code crunching, which would take effort, something Relic does not seriously like.

Another example of this was the cries and tears about the call in system. People wanted, for example, the t34-85 call-in to be able to give an option as to upgrade to the t34-85 model in the tankovi battalion, much like the old sherman gun upgrade in VCOH. Relic said they wanted to implement it, but: 'it had some problems, they couldn't figure it out'. In other words, nah were good, lets keep it this way, this is more convenient.

Stop assuming they are out there to provide you with balance and pleasure. They sell a product, a product which seems to go to free to play status very soon (assuming the signs are read correctly). Which will defy what the product was and is for which many people put down 50-60 dollars or euros. They introduced all the extra campaigns, skinns, commanders and the extra two armies for the essence of squeezing out more money before this game will eventually die out.

It is a product, not a service, how much we want it to be, it will never be a service. Relic wants money, nothing more.

They won't change it. Keep on dreaming, Relic will not change it. Why would they? People keep playing even after they complain and show tears on forums. Changing the USF teching system will take time and some serious code crunching, which would take effort, something Relic does not seriously like.

Another example of this was the cries and tears about the call in system. People wanted, for example, the t34-85 call-in to be able to give an option as to upgrade to the t34-85 model in the tankovi battalion, much like the old sherman gun upgrade in VCOH. Relic said they wanted to implement it, but: 'it had some problems, they couldn't figure it out'. In other words, nah were good, lets keep it this way, this is more convenient.

Stop assuming they are out there to provide you with balance and pleasure. They sell a product, a product which seems to go to free to play status very soon (assuming the signs are read correctly). Which will defy what the product was and is for which many people put down 50-60 dollars or euros. They introduced all the extra campaigns, skinns, commanders and the extra two armies for the essence of squeezing out more money before this game will eventually die out.

It is a product, not a service, how much we want it to be, it will never be a service. Relic wants money, nothing more.

Did you take some negative pills this morning or something? Geez dude seriously, calm down.

Did you take some negative pills this morning or something? Geez dude seriously, calm down.

I am pretty sick op people who still think that Relic will do anything about these situations. They never have, only small chances that require little work or will give them money. People should stop keeping up this naive way of thinking that result in the 'Relic will change it if we whine enough' statement. They won't xd

OP's descriptions are straight on, and his suggestions are straight on as well. But it won't matter.

There's actually not much to do to balance OST vs USF.

Teching needs to be adjusted and range for smoke grenades should be reduced/frag nades disabled while suppressed to make HMGs more reliable vs inf.

Grens could use a fifth man (Kar98 damage had to be reduced so that the damage output doesn't get a increased).

OSt teching should be like this:

- cheap BPs, expensive buldings

For example:

100MP + 15 fuel for every BP

140 MP + 35 fuel (T2), 140 MP + 50FU (T3) and 140MP + 65FU for T4

This way it is easier to skip tiers and you have less MP drain due to teching.


Like Nathan said: It is very likely that relic won't make any big changes

1) suppression to MG42
2) durable 222.

1) suppression to MG42
2) durable 222.

You ask for a lot, perhaps it is to much?! But these suggestions would help indeed!

I feel like the main issue is the manpower they will totally lack compared to everyone else, and fixing that alone would probably be most of the problem gone.

Another issue which have a root at OKW.

You can't nerf USF, because they will be broken UP against OKW.

You can't buff Ost, because it will overpower soviets.

And both WFA armies having teching cheaper then a bag of dog food isn't helping here at all too.

You need to nerf OKW first, then you'll be able to adjust USF.

Another issue which have a root at OKW.

You can't nerf USF, because they will be broken UP against OKW.

You can't buff Ost, because it will overpower soviets.

And both WFA armies having teching cheaper then a bag of dog food isn't helping here at all too.

You need to nerf OKW first, then you'll be able to adjust USF.

Yeah but if you nerf OKW and then adjust USF, that would take at least 2 patches. There's no way that the incompetent fools that are currently balancing this game would ever get it right in 2 patches.

I think the first they should try and test is simply giving Ostheer their T1 building to start with or increasing it's build time ten fold so it can be built in an instant. Then give them an extra 240 mp to allow them to build an extra grenadier to keep up with the USF unit count.

Then Sov could be given extra manpower to match this early, and maybe also a speed increase in building T1 or T2.

Another issue which have a root at OKW.

You can't nerf USF, because they will be broken UP against OKW.

You can't buff Ost, because it will overpower soviets.

And both WFA armies having teching cheaper then a bag of dog food isn't helping here at all too.

You need to nerf OKW first, then you'll be able to adjust USF.

lol this train of logic.

How about just buffing Ost versus USF? Because you can make Ost early game viable without knee capping soviets.

The secret to game balance is buffing, not nerfing.

Want to make USF better versus OKW? Make the USF mortar HT not shit, give the Jackson 160 damage but a higher ROF. Want to make Ost better versus USF? Give grens a 5th man keep the DPS the same and make the MG42 swivel faster.

What specifically in OKW do you think needs nerfed?

Only thing in USF that needs nerfing is the m20 and AA HT arrival time.

LT fuel cost needs to be upped to 60, and tech time increased by like 0:30. Delay these vehicles by 1:30 minutes and ostheer is pretty much fine.

The biggest problem with Ostheer is grens blowing ass at all points in the game versus rifles, not because USF can rush a AA HT or m20.

Use 222 to counter M20.
Im more afraid of AA than M20.
Ostheer faction is not one squad behind.
First tier costs 80mp I guess so its 2 Rifles =2 grens +tier.

Yes, grens are worse than Rifles and they should be.

In fact my biggest problem is AA truck, not Rifles.
Mortar can do wonders against Rifles blob.

1919 and BAR spam will annihilate your grens, and what else do you have? A MG that gets smoked out if the player your fighting has half a clue?

Ostheer just needs some love for blob countering, that's all. More durable grens is a part of that.

Use 222 to counter M20.
Im more afraid of AA than M20.
Ostheer faction is not one squad behind.
First tier costs 80mp I guess so its 2 Rifles =2 grens +tier.

Yes, grens are worse than Rifles and they should be.

In fact my biggest problem is AA truck, not Rifles.
Mortar can do wonders against Rifles blob.

U can get lucky and faust the AA, and kite with scout car.

But thats only if the player is brain dead

I am pretty sick op people

Wooaah incoming negative waves! This game has actually endured a lot of change, the most recent of which being the OKW rework, this is a big project and change won't happen quickly, the issue is their archaic release structure and abysmal lack of transparency and connection during the development.

Whatever,even against soviets ur going to struggle vs well played conspam ,and is-2s will laugh at you and ur poor tiger.This faction is shit,this faction is dead.

This topic is turning to a whine thread. Again......

They won't change it. Keep on dreaming, Relic will not change it. Why would they? People keep playing even after they complain and show tears on forums. Changing the USF teching system will take time and some serious code crunching, which would take effort, something Relic does not seriously like.

Another example of this was the cries and tears about the call in system. People wanted, for example, the t34-85 call-in to be able to give an option as to upgrade to the t34-85 model in the tankovi battalion, much like the old sherman gun upgrade in VCOH. Relic said they wanted to implement it, but: 'it had some problems, they couldn't figure it out'. In other words, nah were good, lets keep it this way, this is more convenient.

Stop assuming they are out there to provide you with balance and pleasure. They sell a product, a product which seems to go to free to play status very soon (assuming the signs are read correctly). Which will defy what the product was and is for which many people put down 50-60 dollars or euros. They introduced all the extra campaigns, skinns, commanders and the extra two armies for the essence of squeezing out more money before this game will eventually die out.

It is a product, not a service, how much we want it to be, it will never be a service. Relic wants money, nothing more.

I thought you quit the game? Why are you still here spreading your toxicity?