Ostheer - MG42
20 Feb 2015, 16:07 PM
#141
8 
Posts: 2470
because MGs are infantry hardcounters. infantry should never be more than softcounters to them. against infantry, an MG should be worth several squads. of course they're supposed to have their own hard counters (mortars); how well they're preforming right now is another question.
20 Feb 2015, 16:12 PM
#142
Posts: 2561
When the MG42 could up it's suppression with the bulletin. It was widely accepted as OP. Why would that change now?
There are better ways to fix it.
There are better ways to fix it.
20 Feb 2015, 16:15 PM
#143
8 Posts: 2470
personally, i think that all it needs is faster traverse and maybe a slightly (1 or 2 seconds) faster teardown.
20 Feb 2015, 17:20 PM
#144
Posts: 183
because MGs are infantry hardcounters. infantry should never be more than softcounters to them. against infantry, an MG should be worth several squads. of course they're supposed to have their own hard counters (mortars); how well they're preforming right now is another question.
Depends on what you mean by hard-counter. The aim of mgs is to suppress which they all do quite quickly, not what you get angry at is the squad then crawling and throwing a grenade. However the mg had done it's job, it suppressed the infantry squad and was then loyally waiting for you to follow up with another squad of your own infantry to engage (which will keep the squad suppressed) and your mg can relocate.
Pinning is not the goal of mgs, it's suppression. Mgs don't hard-counter infantry by damage it's by suppression making those squads very vulnerable to your own infantry.
I decide..... if you live or die!
20 Feb 2015, 17:32 PM
#145
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
Depends on what you mean by hard-counter. The aim of mgs is to suppress which they all do quite quickly, not what you get angry at is the squad then crawling and throwing a grenade. However the mg had done it's job, it suppressed the infantry squad and was then loyally waiting for you to follow up with another squad of your own infantry to engage (which will keep the squad suppressed) and your mg can relocate.
Pinning is not the goal of mgs, it's suppression. Mgs don't hard-counter infantry by damage it's by suppression making those squads very vulnerable to your own infantry.
Big problem is that a lot of infantry get increased grenade range with veterency(grens are really noticeable, but so are vet 3 USF rifles with bulletins) so in later stages of the game you don't need to get that far into an MGs arc before you can let fly and kill a good portion of the crew. Yes we should scout for them but it's not always possible, especially when you're trying to get back onto the field, last thing you want is to set-up your MG, realize you're out of range and be forced to pack it up and move it up which sees the MG being not that far behind the main line.
Suppression should at least drastically reduce grenade ranges for all inf.
20 Feb 2015, 18:34 PM
#146
Posts: 183
Big problem is that a lot of infantry get increased grenade range with veterency(grens are really noticeable, but so are vet 3 USF rifles with bulletins) so in later stages of the game you don't need to get that far into an MGs arc before you can let fly and kill a good portion of the crew. Yes we should scout for them but it's not always possible, especially when you're trying to get back onto the field, last thing you want is to set-up your MG, realize you're out of range and be forced to pack it up and move it up which sees the MG being not that far behind the main line.
Suppression should at least drastically reduce grenade ranges for all inf.
I'll agree on halving grenade range... However if trying to get back onto the field as I said the mg should be half a screen behind your main troops and ready to setup when your infantry see the enemy. Doesn't always work but nothing does in this game.
I decide..... if you live or die!
20 Feb 2015, 18:56 PM
#147
Posts: 419
When the MG42 could up it's suppression with the bulletin. It was widely accepted as OP. Why would that change now?Those same people are the ones saying how great and fine it is now.
There are better ways to fix it.
It doesn't kill well and it doesn't work well for crowd control, and can barely suppress one charging unit before that units gets close enough to destroy it.
On top of that every aspect of its movement is penalized. the traverse time is ludicrous. The insane pack up animation is wtf. Get off the mg, pick up the mg, fold the legs, put the gun over the shoulder, then pivot and stop then run home. You can't dodge a satchel even if you pack up right before it is thrown.
It is not a support unit it is a unit that needs babysitting.
The mg is supposed to be a force multiplier, but in it's current form you need more units than the enemy. 1 mg and gren vs 2 rifles will 90 percent of the time mean you retreat or die.
20 Feb 2015, 19:07 PM
#148
8 Posts: 2470
Depends on what you mean by hard-counter. The aim of mgs is to suppress which they all do quite quickly, not what you get angry at is the squad then crawling and throwing a grenade. However the mg had done it's job, it suppressed the infantry squad and was then loyally waiting for you to follow up with another squad of your own infantry to engage (which will keep the squad suppressed) and your mg can relocate.
Pinning is not the goal of mgs, it's suppression. Mgs don't hard-counter infantry by damage it's by suppression making those squads very vulnerable to your own infantry.
on a cost to cost basis MGs should beat more than their value in infantry. if an MG catches a unit (or units, depending on the situation) in its arc it should kill/force to retreat.
pinning is generally a negligible gameplay mechanic, it basically tells the player that they've left their infantry squad in a suppression area for too long and prevents some units from crawling all the way up to throw a grenade.
the only MG the preforms anything like that is the maxim, which on a 1 to 1 basis hard counters all infantry other than obers but can also hard counter them. on a group basis maxims are less powerful but still preform pretty well.
20 Feb 2015, 19:33 PM
#149
Posts: 978
Silver Sage put it nicely. It´s a force multiplier. He didn´t mention however that it´s so micro intensive and clumsy that you are better off with an additional Gren squad for your Gren blob.
You can either chose to cripple your mobility with a hardly useful unit, or having a chance to overwhelm the enemy with a unit that´s mobile, doesn´t get flanked and can at least put out some dps. The MG42 offers less effect for more micro. I prefer building Grens and blob. It´s more relaxing.
I´ve changed my Ostheer build from Gren, MG, Gren, Mg to 4x Gren. And since then I win games. I love when people (who btw think that the MG42 is great) complain about me blobbing Grens.
Is that how the game is supposed to be played? No? Then better fix MGs.
You can either chose to cripple your mobility with a hardly useful unit, or having a chance to overwhelm the enemy with a unit that´s mobile, doesn´t get flanked and can at least put out some dps. The MG42 offers less effect for more micro. I prefer building Grens and blob. It´s more relaxing.
I´ve changed my Ostheer build from Gren, MG, Gren, Mg to 4x Gren. And since then I win games. I love when people (who btw think that the MG42 is great) complain about me blobbing Grens.
Is that how the game is supposed to be played? No? Then better fix MGs.
20 Feb 2015, 19:39 PM
#150
8 Posts: 2470
yes, it's a force multiplier because it's a hard counter; grens are additive. also, the MG42/34 are more defensive oriented than offensive. due to the setup/teardown times they're hard (not impossible, but hard) to use offensively. the kubel, M2, and Maxim are all much more mobile.
20 Feb 2015, 20:01 PM
#151
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
If you want stand alone area denial unit, build a bunker.
If you want unit that will allow your grens to fall back without giving up all map control, get MG42 and put it behind grens, not instead of them.
If you want unit that will allow your grens to fall back without giving up all map control, get MG42 and put it behind grens, not instead of them.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
20 Feb 2015, 20:05 PM
#152
8 Posts: 2470
or i'll just build a bunker. it costs mun sure, but it's harder to kill early game and less likely to die and end up against me. depends on the map and situation though.
20 Feb 2015, 22:12 PM
#153
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
Still no vids or replays of situation, where MG (in opinion of poster) is underperforming.
Enough of theories. Let's take a look on some examples. Then we'll see.
Enough of theories. Let's take a look on some examples. Then we'll see.
21 Feb 2015, 01:54 AM
#154
Posts: 183
Still no vids or replays of situation, where MG (in opinion of poster) is underperforming.
Enough of theories. Let's take a look on some examples. Then we'll see.
Yes I would be interested in analysing the situations in which the mg fails to suppress units (yellow, green cover etc.)
I decide..... if you live or die!
21 Feb 2015, 15:17 PM
#155
Posts: 204
Permanently BannedWhy is the MG34 better in game then the MG42, which was build to replace it.. xd
21 Feb 2015, 15:38 PM
#156
Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7
Why is the MG34 better in game then the MG42, which was build to replace it.. xd
It's not... in terms of stats they are identical except for the fact the mg34 has a lower rate of fire which in turn means it suppresses slower
22 Feb 2015, 03:55 AM
#157
8 Posts: 2470
mg34 was better when it was released but then it got nerfed.
6 Mar 2015, 04:26 AM
#158
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Permanently BannedThe mg34 one of the worlds most advanced machine gun in the world. Worse than a maxim. I don't understand why its 210 manpower and made out to be a piece of shit. Increase cost to 240-50 and give it stats of current mg42 stats. Then buff mg42 significantly and increase cost to 280-300 manpower.
1337 h4X0R, dank memes
axis
6 Mar 2015, 07:19 AM
#159
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
The mg34 one of the worlds most advanced machine gun in the world. Worse than a maxim. I don't understand why its 210 manpower and made out to be a piece of shit. Increase cost to 240-50 and give it stats of current mg42 stats. Then buff mg42 significantly and increase cost to 280-300 manpower.
MG-42 costing more would mean that you will have 1 less squad to protect it, which means that this precious "buffed" machinegun will turn against you, upgraded to 6-man squad.
Still waiting for vids with MG-42 underperforming.
6 Mar 2015, 07:56 AM
#160
Posts: 150
As far as i've experienced the mg42 i can say it's not bad. The only problem i have all the time are the rifles. Running them over with cons isn't something new and it's more or less intended. The rifles will close in, get surpressed in granade range, they will throw a grenade or a smoke nade. If you retreat the mg it wil bunch up and die most likely because of the frag grenade, if you are trying to soft retreat it, you'll pack it up and until it's set up again the rifle isn't surpressed and as soon as your mg could shoot again the rifle is already besides your mg. That's the problem i've experienced most times. I won't complain about the rifle blobs because it's op and it's not the point of the discussion here.
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