PGrens with double panzerschrecks against USF

The point people keep trying to get at is that Ostheer has quite weak infantry based AT (or at least very fragile infantry based AT) which is partly what has forced the current "stall for tiger/elefant" or "rush to Panther" meta.

If Ostheer had better mobile MP based AT then Ostheer players would have much more flexibility in strategy. Making Pgrens better at what they are supposed to do is part of that.

The point people keep trying to get at is that Ostheer has quite weak infantry based AT (or at least very fragile infantry based AT) which is partly what has forced the current "stall for tiger/elefant" or "rush to Panther" meta.

If Ostheer had better mobile MP based AT then Ostheer players would have much more flexibility in strategy. Making Pgrens better at what they are supposed to do is part of that.

Try using Guards if you think PGs are weak infantry based AT.

The point people keep trying to get at is that Ostheer has quite weak infantry based AT (or at least very fragile infantry based AT) which is partly what has forced the current "stall for tiger/elefant" or "rush to Panther" meta.

If Ostheer had better mobile MP based AT then Ostheer players would have much more flexibility in strategy. Making Pgrens better at what they are supposed to do is part of that.

And would lead to OKW v2. Pgrens are just fine if you take steps to mitigate their fragility. Putting them in buildings, Screening for them etc. What they are NOT as Volks blobs that just run headlong into massive HE rounds and AI units to finish off armor with absolutely no drawback at all.

If Pgrens magically were able to do this then DAMN right Ostheer would have more options. Similarly if Zook blobs were as effective as OKW shrek blobs then USF would have alot more options.

But those options wouldnt be fun...

Between PAKs, P4s, tellers, and fausts, the Ostheer have plenty of ways to deal with enemy tanks in 1v1. I pretty much never upgrade my Pgrens with shrecks. I like their AI much more. In team games, Elephants are fully viable with a teammate being able to cover your weaknesses in mobility. Don't mess with an Elephant.

Try using Guards if you think PGs are weak infantry based AT.

Guards are Guardbage (hehe), I agree.

And would lead to OKW v2. Pgrens are just fine if you take steps to mitigate their fragility. Putting them in buildings, Screening for them etc. What they are NOT as Volks blobs that just run headlong into massive HE rounds and AI units to finish off armor with absolutely no drawback at all.

If Pgrens magically were able to do this then DAMN right Ostheer would have more options. Similarly if Zook blobs were as effective as OKW shrek blobs then USF would have alot more options.

But those options wouldnt be fun...

Putting them in a building is actually a horrible idea as then you cannot instruct them at what to shoot at, and screening is pointless when a single HE round or a shell from a Scott can instantly wipe them with no warning.

And if you are blobbing volks, as in grouping them up and running around your just asking to get 6 squads wiped by a single HE shell.

Pgrens shouldn't be able to magically survive HE, but they should be able to not get instantly wiped extremely easily. And considering how expensive they are even if you did buff Pgrens survivability they would never be able to be blobbed. With Ostheers huge MP drain.

Between PAKs, P4s, tellers, and fausts, the Ostheer have plenty of ways to deal with enemy tanks in 1v1. I pretty much never upgrade my Pgrens with shrecks. I like their AI much more. In team games, Elephants are fully viable with a teammate being able to cover your weaknesses in mobility. Don't mess with an Elephant.

I do enjoy Pgren's AI capabilities especially against Rifle blobs, but the P4 is a very poor investment as far as AT goes. It can have it's round bounce pretty regularly against Shermans and T34's.

Yes, it sometimes bounces off of Shermans and T34s. However, they are slightly more likely to be defeated by the P4 than the reverse, barring outside influence. Naturally, combined arms hopes that you have fausted and/or got in a hit with the Pak before charging in with your P4 to finish their tank off.

Putting them in a building is actually a horrible idea as then you cannot instruct them at what to shoot at, and screening is pointless when a single HE round or a shell from a Scott can instantly wipe them with no warning.

And if you are blobbing volks, as in grouping them up and running around your just asking to get 6 squads wiped by a single HE shell.

Putting them in buildings is just fine. Leaving them in buildings in a non tactical fashion is not. They will target armor by prefernce with their Shreks. And if you have them behind your screen they can do this to stop Truesight blocks. Good players use them this way. If you want to use them Solo to counter AI Armor by just putting them in a building and leaving them there of course they will fire at the first Infantry unit that screens said armor.

I have build literally 100s of Shermans and Scotts and the one shot whipes arent as common as people make them out to be. Granted it will happen but its hardly every shot every time or even more then 20% of the time if I had to WAG it. Not saying that it should One hit whipe anything ever really. But I think thats another topic.

And even dual Shermans with HE checked will have to back peddle in the face of a Volks blob and will hardly do any damage on average. When A move Volks are A moving they tend to spread out enough. You would literally have to be the WORST Player in COH2 history to blob Volks in such a way as to have 6 whiped by one HE round. I mean they would have to clip into each other...

Sherman does to Pgrens what Tigers/P4s/Stugs to a lesser degree/Brummbars/Luchs/Ostwinds do to Bazooka squads. I see no real issue with this. The Sherman being what the Sherman is defines the USFs core advantage. Flexibility.
The Sherman is best at AI. I would classify it personally as an AI tank. Thus not cost effective to counter with Infantry. And the sole reason its justified Pound for Pound Axis tanks have better armor and AT ability.

If the Infantry vs AI tank Meta needs to be adjusted then Zooks should be looked at I would think.

Tigers deal with infantry pretty well, but that's a late game tank and very expensive (are we already comparing Tigers and Shermans? ), and allied infantry are less susceptible to insta-wipes because of larger numbers. I have to disagree with you about PzIVs and StuGs do the same thing with Bazooka squads. Although they do sometimes perform crazy wipes, that's because of the cover system, we can check stats and compare them. As you said, USF should be flexible by design, but Shermans counter medium armor and infantry with ease and they arrive quickly, so the USF player gains huge map control (Remeber that we are talking about USF vs Ostheer). I've always been a fan of "reduce damage increase AOE" regarding all of Explosive Shells (Shermans, Brummbar, TrolStuka, ISU etc.)

Your point about Bazooka is valid. That thing is pure BS, not only you have to spend muni, you lose significant amount of firepower. Need slight pen increase and damage, so you can actually rely on your Bazooka squad to hold Medium armor at bay.

I don't know how can they fix this situation, because USF relies on Shermans and they decent HE damage versus OKW. Against Ostheer though, I'm not sure what to do.

The point people keep trying to get at is that Ostheer has quite weak infantry based AT.

What in the actual fuck.

Putting them in buildings is just fine. Leaving them in buildings in a non tactical fashion is not. They will target armor by prefernce with their Shreks. And if you have them behind your screen they can do this to stop Truesight blocks. Good players use them this way. If you want to use them Solo to counter AI Armor by just putting them in a building and leaving them there of course they will fire at the first Infantry unit that screens said armor.

I have build literally 100s of Shermans and Scotts and the one shot whipes arent as common as people make them out to be. Granted it will happen but its hardly every shot every time or even more then 20% of the time if I had to WAG it. Not saying that it should One hit whipe anything ever really. But I think thats another topic.

And even dual Shermans with HE checked will have to back peddle in the face of a Volks blob and will hardly do any damage on average. When A move Volks are A moving they tend to spread out enough. You would literally have to be the WORST Player in COH2 history to blob Volks in such a way as to have 6 whiped by one HE round. I mean they would have to clip into each other...

The strength of the Panzershrek is it's high damage, and it's largest weakness is a poor ROF. If your Pgrens in a building decide to shoot at the infantry leading the assault then you will need to wait until they can reload to maybe to shoot the sherman. Still, building garrisoning in general is a bad idea in the current meta with allied indirect being extremely good.

I never have nor ever will use Pgrens as solo units, but even when supported they still get wiped and remain expensive to reinforce and replace while also being quite fragile. This would be fine if the unit was able to preform well for cost against what it's supposed to counter, unfortunately it does not and is at best a good mobile anti infantry unit.

The ability to wipe a squad 20% of the time, as in 1/5 shots is extremely powerful.

If you attack move with volks, on a open field, with no enemy's to face then yes your volks won't group up, but in any other situation they tend to bunch up into a ball or what we like to call "a blob" making them very weak to things like HE shells or other explosive forms of ordinance. And I can't believe that you have so many games played yet have never seen an infantry unit clip into another one.

What in the actual fuck.

If you stopped reading my post there, than you would have a right to say this. Ostheer anti tank dedicated units are quite susceptible to the very things they are supposed to counter due to small squad size combined with a high DPS/1 shot meta.

are we already comparing Tigers and Shermans? ),.

Look at the AOE profile of the HE shell. Then look at the Tiger. They are VERY similar. The Tiger beats the Sherman HE of course but not by huge margin.

And I think soft counter medium armor is more accurate. In most cases 1v1 without support a P4 should beat a Sherman. Unless the Sherman had amazing RNG and first shot advantage. Much like the T34/76 vs the Sherman matchup.

I get what your saying man but I dont think an Infantry Support tank such as a M4 Sherman should run in fear from four little men. The Easy 8 I could accept.

And I am not talking about whipes from the USF. I am talking about the horrible bleed if you try such a thing. The bleed those tanks can inflict on Zookd Rifles would be much greater then the damage traded. So USF may not get whiped out but will bleed for less damage. And bleed ALOT.

I dont think anyone thinks that squad whipes without warning from full health are OK. But thats not a Pgren exclusive problem. Rnades do this by the 1000s as well as a whole host of Non Sherman things.

I firmly believe that the Pgrens are fine and shouldnt be expected to beat a Sherman 1 on 1. Which costs more anyway? Sherman with an MG or a Pgren with a Shrek? What costs more tech? Which loss is more impactful?

And in an even 1v1 If I rush for a Sherman I tend to get it at the 13 Min mark at the EARLIEST. I wouldnt call that fast myself. Seeing as I typically see Tigers at 17.

If you stopped reading my post there, than you would have a right to say this. Ostheer anti tank dedicated units are quite susceptible to the very things they are supposed to counter due to small squad size combined with a high DPS/1 shot meta.

That is a different matter, but still the original statement that Ostheer infantry-held AT is weak does not hold regardless of the qualifiers and explanations you offer after that sentence. Purely speaking, Ostheer has the strongest infantry-held AT (double Schreck PzGrens), although of course Volks are much more useful overall. Yes, PzGrens die more easily since the cover system changes, and they are squishy. But I must say I disagree with the estimate that this squishiness (by the way, that's only 1 squadmember less than Rifles or Volks) is somehow the reason for Tigers / Elefants.

The reason people hold out for Tigers is:
- that it is disproportionately difficult to deal with Tigers cost-effectively as allies.
- that, when you factor in teching costs, a Tiger is just plain cheaper to get than a Panther.
- that the Allied factions' AT capabilities are designed to at least contend with the abundance of heavy armour, which means they are incredibly good against Ostheer T3. In fact, Soviet anti-tank was buffed in May patch of 2014 with the EXPLICIT explanation "OKW has a lot of heavy armour, so Soviet AT at the moment just isn't going to cut it". Which is when ISU-152 was buffed from being affectionately called "the quickest way to throw a game as Soviets" into a beast that dominated the meta for months.

The ability to wipe a squad 20% of the time, as in 1/5 shots is extremely powerful.

If you attack move with volks, on a open field, with no enemy's to face then yes your volks won't group up, but in any other situation they tend to bunch up into a ball or what we like to call "a blob" making them very weak to things like HE shells or other explosive forms of ordinance. And I can't believe that you have so many games played yet have never seen an infantry unit clip into another one.

I didnt say whiping even 1 in 5 was fine for the Record. I dont think it is. But this is the squad whipe Patch. See the Rnade comparison.

A blob doesnt have to occupy the same space. Just a TON of units A moved. I never see them all in one place usually spaced out and CTRL Grouped to A move from Point A to Point B. As long as you keep A moving them this way and they never reach the final destination they wont turn into a Ball.

So the long answer to your question...I dont play team games so I dont see death balls. I do see blobs. But of a different nature.

Look at the AOE profile of the HE shell. Then look at the Tiger. They are VERY similar. The Tiger beats the Sherman HE of course but not by huge margin.

And I think soft counter medium armor is more accurate. In most cases 1v1 without support a P4 should beat a Sherman. Unless the Sherman had amazing RNG and first shot advantage. Much like the T34/76 vs the Sherman matchup.

I get what your saying man but I dont think an Infantry Support tank such as a M4 Sherman should run in fear from four little men. The Easy 8 I could accept.

And I am not talking about whipes from the USF. I am talking about the horrible bleed if you try such a thing. The bleed those tanks can inflict on Zookd Rifles would be much greater then the damage traded. So USF may not get whiped out but will bleed for less damage. And bleed ALOT.

I dont think anyone thinks that squad whipes without warning from full health are OK. But thats not a Pgren exclusive problem. Rnades do this by the 1000s as well as a whole host of Non Sherman things.

I firmly believe that the Pgrens are fine and shouldnt be expected to beat a Sherman 1 on 1. Which costs more anyway? Sherman with an MG or a Pgren with a Shrek? What costs more tech? Which loss is more impactful?

And in an even 1v1 If I rush for a Sherman I tend to get it at the 13 Min mark at the EARLIEST. I wouldnt call that fast myself. Seeing as I typically see Tigers at 17.

I don't expect Pgrens to beat a sherman 1 on 1, or any generalist medium tank 1 on 1. But I would expect some sort of return for my investment instead of them getting 1 shot by a giant Rifleblob of death despite covering them with multiple other units.

That is a different matter, but still the original statement that Ostheer infantry-held AT is weak does not hold regardless of the qualifiers and explanations you offer after that sentence. Purely speaking, Ostheer has the strongest infantry-held AT (double Schreck PzGrens), although of course Volks are much more useful overall. Yes, PzGrens die more easily since the cover system changes, and they are squishy. But I must say I disagree with the estimate that this squishiness (by the way, that's only 1 squadmember less than Rifles or Volks) is somehow the reason for Tigers / Elefants.

The reason people hold out for Tigers is:
- that it is disproportionately difficult to deal with Tigers cost-effectively as allies.
- that, when you factor in teching costs, a Tiger is just plain cheaper to get than a Panther.
- that the Allied factions' AT capabilities are designed to at least contend with the abundance of heavy armour, which means they are incredibly good against Ostheer T3. In fact, Soviet anti-tank was buffed in May patch of 2014 with the EXPLICIT explanation "OKW has a lot of heavy armour, so Soviet AT at the moment just isn't going to cut it". Which is when ISU-152 was buffed from being affectionately called "the quickest way to throw a game as Soviets" into a beast that dominated the meta for months.

"Purely speaking" is meaningless as units do not exist in a vacuum, and we cannot approach balance and changes in such a way. Ostheer Infantry based AT is weak because: It is expensive yet fragile, meaning it's quite easy for an enemy player to simply invalidate your investment because your squads/units are very weak to the very things they are supposed to counter.

The idea that you cannot cost effectively deal with Tigers as allies is a joke, not only does the IS2 out class it, so does the KV1. The Jackson preforms fairly well against Tigers and so does the 52mm AT gun. The Tiger is probably the most balanced heavy tank in the game at the moment, it's good with out being OP.

The reason you see "Hold and wait for Tigers" is because you have very little else in the way of options for dealing with allied medium tanks.

I don't expect Pgrens to beat a sherman 1 on 1, or any generalist medium tank 1 on 1. But I would expect some sort of return for my investment instead of them getting 1 shot by a giant Rifleblob of death despite covering them with multiple other units.

This. We don' expect them to become Ubervolks armed with laser guided missiles. They are just not worth it.

I have been trying to avoid this thread because of the author of the OP, but i guess ill say something...

Austerlitz is sensible when it comes to approaching Ostheer's problems, so his suggestions are good. Slight received accuracy decrease ( if im thinking right at 12 am, this should mean bullets have a slight more chance to miss), one more squad member for grenadier/panzergrenadier but overall same DPS as before, etc...

Those slight buffs or either slight nerfs to the causes that make the suggestion for slight buffs to arise.

What i dont ever see mentioned (except by Cruzz) is that pioneers cost too much. Their combat performance is very marginal, and they are Ostheer's only source of repair whereas everyone else has at least two - commanders included.

Ultimately even in Ostheer infantry if less wipable it won't fix the horrible teching price issues.

... denying access to all kind of vehicles this shitty faction (USF) has. That's too much firepower for a mere 120 Muni investment. One panzershreck should be good enough to deal with a bunch of glass canons, no? Storms are the perfect example of an AT-On-Foot unit.

Don't volks have one shreck?

yet this still exist : http://www.coh2.org/topic/30365/remove-shreck-from-volks/page/21

I'm sure even if they only had one, someone would request the same as the above thread

The idea that you cannot cost effectively deal with Tigers as allies is a joke, not only does the IS2 out class it, so does the KV1.

KV1?