PGrens with double panzerschrecks against USF

One shreck for them is enough, their veterancy bonus/4men will never allow them to be another volk

They actually have a worse shrek stat wise than Volks do, and their veternacy bonus's don't fix the fact they are still extremely easy to kill for a expensive squad

Oh please, Panzergrenadiers are probably one of the few units in this game that work as intended. You have a dedicated AI squad and you can upgrade it with 120 munitions to make it a dedicated AT squad, sacrificing pretty much all AI capabilites. Actually more units should be like that, instead of Allrounders.

Which is meaningless when the rest of the game around them is broken so they are awful, which is pretty much a issue with all of the way Ostheer is designed.

Oh please, Panzergrenadiers are probably one of the few units in this game that work as intended. You have a dedicated AI squad and you can upgrade it with 120 munitions to make it a dedicated AT squad, sacrificing pretty much all AI capabilites. Actually more units should be like that, instead of Allrounders.

100% This. They have drawbacks. Cost/small squad size. Choice between AI and AT. Not bullet proof. I prefer the double shrek model over the single shrek Volks. It makes for an interesting choice not an A move unit with little to fear.

The problem is your paying 120 munitions in a munition starved faction for alright AT on a already expensive and fragile squad that is very easy to wipe in 1 shot from a tank despite them being a unit that's supposed to counter tanks.

What's the point of making a unit counter something when the unit that it counters, counters the unit you made much much better?

I dont think PGS should ever get 1 shrek. Having you guys tried using Stormtroopers with 1 shrek? they are garbage compare to a dedicated double shreked PGs. Double shreked PGs supported with Paks are AMAZING against medium armor. No, PGs dont need a change and they are working as intended. I agree 100% with Luvnest's post as well.

A pgren squad with shrecks are definitely a 'soft' counter to tanks. They aren't generally going to, nor should they, go face to face with any medium tank and win. They provide some good extra damage and are great in a flank or ambush situation. They are a counter to light vehicles, sure. Pgrens are in a good spot right now.

The problem is your paying 120 munitions in a munition starved faction for alright AT on a already expensive and fragile squad that is very easy to wipe in 1 shot from a tank despite them being a unit that's supposed to counter tanks.

What's the point of making a unit counter something when the unit that it counters, counters the unit you made much much better?

?

Infantry arent meant to counter tanks. They are meant to provide AT support. Not Blob like OKW and invalidate fuel purchases.

Thats the job of weapon teams.

The fact that you CAN lose the investment is what makes it interesting. Its high risk high reward. Not low risk high reward that volks currently are.

So wait what the fuck is even the point of paying 120 munitions for shreks when you think they aren't even supposed to counter the very thing they are intended to counter. Seriously how much man power investment do you want from Ostheer? 300 for a AT gun, 320 and 120 munitions for a Shrek squad, and bloody over 600 man power and a 175 fuel in the last most expensive tier for the only damn thing that can reliably counter allied medium armor.

You know the Puppchen blows not just because it can't hit shit, but because it has extremely low survivability against the very thing it's intended to counter?

Yes taking out a vehicle with 2 shots is "perfectly fine".


Storms are not crappy or useless, they are how pgrens should have been.

So wait what the fuck is even the point of paying 120 munitions for shreks when you think they aren't even supposed to counter the very thing they are intended to counter. Seriously how much man power investment do you want from Ostheer? 300 for a AT gun, 320 and 120 munitions for a Shrek squad, and bloody over 600 man power and a 175 fuel in the last most expensive tier for the only damn thing that can reliably counter allied medium armor.

You know the Puppchen blows not just because it can't hit shit, but because it has extremely low survivability against the very thing it's intended to counter?

Faust + Pak or
Faust + Any Armor or
Teller + Pak or
Teller + Any armor or
Faust + Shrek squad + Pak or
Shrek Squad+ Shrek Squad + Micro
Or
or
or
or

Taking out armor as Axis is not hard. All the tools to just that are there in the faction and superior in that regard to the equal allied counterpart.

You can say how you would like the game to be. Thats fine. But Infantry is at most supposed to be a soft counter to armor not a hard. At least this was true until WFA...

Edit:

And the Rak does blow. But thats a different topic. It work real well against Panthers though....

Faust + Pak or
Faust + Any Armor or
Teller + Pak or
Teller + Any armor or
Faust + Shrek squad + Pak or
Shrek Squad+ Shrek Squad + Micro
Or
or
or
or

Taking out armor as Axis is not hard. All the tools to just that are there in the faction and superior in that regard to the equal allied counterpart.

You can say how you would like the game to be. Thats fine. But Infantry is at most supposed to be a soft counter to armor not a hard. At least this was true until WFA...

Infantry should be more than able to counter tanks, unless you think the days of Soviet Industry just after it's release were just fine and dandy.

Every single good RTS ever has had a good counter system, and counters can be across platforms be it tank destroyers or infantry. No counter is any more or less bullshit unless it can't even compete against the thing it's supposed to counter at all. How would you like it if we applied your argument to allied things huh? Oh yeah the T-70 is supposed to suck, it's not a hard counter to infantry. The SU-76 is supposed to be bad, it's working as intended!

And Axis AT (or at least Ostheer) isn't nearly as good as you think it is. The problem isn't the medium tanks alone, it's the absolute fuckhorde of infantry following the medium tanks to. Axis anti tank gun crews are very easy to kill due to the small crew size, along with the fact that the only reliable Ostheer tank that can counter allied mediums is in the very last tier.

Why do you not see any Panzer IV's any more? Because they can't hold a bloody candle to the assortment of medium and heavy armor the allies have, sure a PIV can kill a T34 in a vacuum, but that T34 will probably have Jacksons, ZiS guns and a horde of AT grenade cons following it. Then you have USF which makes all axis medium armor look pathetic.

Ever wonder why Axis love to spam heavy tanks? It's not because they just like the look of them better than the mediums.

I see P4s all the time. I use P4s all the time. As said, it just takes some combined arms action. You talk about how the allies have all of these things backing up their medium armor. So does the Axis. You have to wisely clear their infantry screen, just like they are trying to do to you. A good faust and a sweep around with a P4 or a PAK works wonders.

The thing is with the P4 is it has very poor late game ability, when it gets out on to the field it's an excellent support tank till Jacksons come out and then your going to spend half the bloody game repairing the damn thing.

Specifically with Ostheer your problem is that your enemy has better infantry than you, and better mediums, so the answer to both of those things is Panther/Heavy tank. Why invest in something that is just going to get you mixed results? This of course, can be applied to Pgrens with shreks, if you all you going to get out of it is mediocre performance whats the point?

The thing is with the P4 is it has very poor late game ability, when it gets out on to the field it's an excellent support tank till Jacksons come out and then your going to spend half the bloody game repairing the damn thing.

Specifically with Ostheer your problem is that your enemy has better infantry than you, and better mediums, so the answer to both of those things is Panther/Heavy tank. Why invest in something that is just going to get you mixed results? This of course, can be applied to Pgrens with shreks, if you all you going to get out of it is mediocre performance whats the point?

Dont say Osth has a problem with all Allied infantry, the Osth's only problem is rifles and not conscripts.

Ost doesn't have a problem with conscripts, it's all the things that tend to be around the conscripts that's the problem. Also things like shocks turn pretty much any Ostheer unit to hamburger with the clever application of smoke and some grenades.

Then you have the whole 4 man squads thing, so I hope enjoy being squad wiped by 1 grenade/mortar shell!

Ost doesn't have a problem with conscripts, it's all the things that tend to be around the conscripts that's the problem. Also things like shocks turn pretty much any Ostheer unit to hamburger with the clever application of smoke and some grenades.

Then you have the whole 4 man squads thing, so I hope enjoy being squad wiped by 1 grenade/mortar shell!

If you let shock close in to you and you dont retreat than its your mistake, you should be able to anticipate the smoke and move your squad back. LMG Grens rape Shocks at range so I cant give you the credit for OST units get "hamburgered".

I am sure allot players here faced a situation where their 6 man squads get wiped by single mine, rifle grenade or mortar.

P4s can be an excellent late game investment if:

1-You do not lose too many, know when to retreat. Never use a P4 alone, always in groups of 2 or more. Safety/power in numbers.
2-Vet 2 is very important. Once you have 1 or 2 at Vet 2 then you are in business, and you can afford to be a bit more aggressive.
3-Safety net where you can repair and regroup. Something like 2x Pios and a PaK 40 for cover.

I'd just like to point out that there was a point during the CoH2 beta where Pgrens only had a single shreck upgrade. The result was massive blobbing of Pgrens similar to what we see now with Volks. To solve the problem relic gave Pgrens the double shreck upgrade we see today so that the squad has to choose to be good vs infantry OR tanks but not both at the same time. Relic then promptly forgot the lesson they learned from Pgrens and a year later designed Volks.

I'd just like to point out that there was a point during the CoH2 beta where Pgrens only had a single shreck upgrade. The result was massive blobbing of Pgrens similar to what we see now with Volks. To solve the problem relic gave Pgrens the double shreck upgrade we see today so that the squad has to choose to be good vs infantry OR tanks but not both at the same time. Relic then promptly forgot the lesson they learned from Pgrens and a year later designed Volks.

Wow, I did not know this. Maybe 120 muni upgrade for Volks will deter shrek blobing and add MP40s for AI capabilities.

I'd just like to point out that there was a point during the CoH2 beta where Pgrens only had a single shreck upgrade. The result was massive blobbing of Pgrens similar to what we see now with Volks. To solve the problem relic gave Pgrens the double shreck upgrade we see today so that the squad has to choose to be good vs infantry OR tanks but not both at the same time. Relic then promptly forgot the lesson they learned from Pgrens and a year later designed Volks.

Wrong, actually (except the part about gaining an extra shrek). Pgrens being spammed was problem long after release and pretty much ended when they got giant nerf to their survivability, getting a extra shrek wasn't a nerf, it was part of a decision with multiple units getting swapped around.

Wow, I did not know this. Maybe 120 muni upgrade for Volks will deter shrek blobing and add MP40s for AI capabilities.

MP40's would actually be a downgrade, and 120 muni would delay the first shrek OKW can get quite a bit which is fun if you think being able to auto win with scout cars is good meta.