Remove Shreck from Volks

The Puma is questionable in 2v2, and I imagine utterly useless further up. In 1v1, on the other hand, it is a perfectly viable unit, and I see it alot. I reckon many of the disagreements on this page stems from the vastly dissimilar experiences players make in different game modes.

Whoever says that puma is bad or underpowered should go back to playing tutorial missions and likely stay there.

Bear in mind that OKW puma arrives at 5-7th minute and looking at ost mobile defence doctrine we can see its arrival is intended for about the same time as medium armor, which it counters with basic micro.

Its perfectly viable unit to supplement early AT, thou I can see how shreck blobbers avoid it-as I've said, it requires basic micro, a perk that a-movers of 4v4 do not have and not surprisingly, that is the crowd that defends shrecks on volks as long as whining about OP unit being UP.

how about remove schrecks from volks and give them x4 STG44 upgrade? it would be a cool idea i think.

Yes, it would be cool. I also supported this idea. Then somebody said Volks couldn't be upgraded with any other weapons apart from Flamethrowers or LMGs because they lack the animations for other weapons.

I prefer flamethrowers.

Another idea that would work pretty well I think is a simple "Advanced Rifle Training" upgrade that replaces their Kar98 variant with the Grenadier one.

Katitof, seriously, what is it with all this brashness and hostility, your tendency to deride others? In every other post you belittle people who do not share your opinion, I mean WTF? That sort of behaviour drives people away from this forum, and its not like you are a even a regular sight on the ladder yourself. Worse, I might add, in the real world, your style of "communication" would not make you any friends whatsoever.

As to the unit itself, different game modes have different dynamics and therefore different degrees of unit viability. 4v4 tends to have significantly accelerated teching compared to 1v1 and that means that the Pumas window of effectiveness is greatly reduced compared to 1v1 while also delaying the heavier, and more permanently viable AT options, which in OKWs case means the Panther.

Yes, it would be cool. I also supported this idea. Then somebody said Volks couldn't be upgraded with any other weapons apart from Flamethrowers or LMGs because they lack the animations for other weapons.

I prefer flamethrowers.

Another idea that would work pretty well I think is a simple "Advanced Rifle Training" upgrade that replaces their Kar98 variant with the Grenadier one.

I personally dont have all that many problems with Schreckgrens, but if Schrecks were taken away from Volks, it would require either a significant buff to other OKW AT options or even a remodelling of the teching, not to mention a significant remake of Volks, meaning, apart from weapon options to keep them viable, ie. vet requirements etc..

Katitof, seriously, what is it with all this brashness and hostility, your tendency to deride others? In every other post you belittle people who do not share your opinion, I mean WTF? That sort of behaviour drives people away from this forum, and its not like you are a even a regular sight on the ladder yourself. Worse, I might add, in the real world, your style of "communication" would not make you any friends whatsoever.

yep

LeYawn no, I'm bashing on people who spit utter bs.
Not everyone needs to have the same opinion and I don't need to enforce my opinions on others, but when someone goes around screaming that the sun is blue(or puma is up in this case) then yea, there will be no mercy.

Basically discussions always are somewhat reasonable before 4v4 a-move crowd jumps in with their completely skewed perception of balance.

I mean, how bad you have to be to not even realize that this armored car can effortlessly compete against stock mediums, I myself am far from perfect player, but calling perfectly fine units or overperforming ones as weak or not worth it just because you can't play properly with them and fail?

Sure its easier to shreckblob into obers and panthers, but it doesn't change the hard fact proven by players themselves that choices like puma, AA ht or JP4 are equally valid, effective, more interesting and can seal the game much faster then stall for panthers with shreckblob. You don't need to play with these other units, you don't need to like them, but complete denial of their usefulness and performance, calling them a waste of fuel is beyond being stupid/bad.

The Puma is questionable in 2v2, and I imagine utterly useless further up. In 1v1, on the other hand, it is a perfectly viable unit, and I see it alot. I reckon many of the disagreements on this page stems from the vastly dissimilar experiences players make in different game modes.

imagine harder. it is completely viable and recommended at some points.

I personally dont have all that many problems with Schreckgrens, but if Schrecks were taken away from Volks, it would require either a significant buff to other OKW AT options or even a remodelling of the teching, not to mention a significant remake of Volks, meaning, apart from weapon options to keep them viable, ie. vet requirements etc..

Other AT options for OKW are actually fine (except for the Raketenwerfer which needs to be made reliable and a bit more durable).

Remodelling of teching...what exactly do you mean? Switching units between tiers or something like that?

Vet requirements are not a problem IMO. When I played Kappatch I got my Volks to vet 4 relatively fast without any AI upgrade(most of the exp probably came from Pfaust hits though).

Don't you think Volks with Pfausts and AI upgrades like Flamethrowers or straight DPS upgrades are already viable enough. How can you make them even more viable?

imagine harder. it is completely viable and recommended at some points.

Well Ok, I barely play anything above 2v2 so Ill take your word for it. However, already in 2v2, a Puma is something you need to think long and hard about since hard AT will be on the field much quicker than in 1v1 and will restrict its utility considerably.

Other AT options for OKW are actually fine (except for the Raketenwerfer which needs to be made reliable and a bit more durable).

Remodelling of teching...what exactly do you mean? Switching units between tiers or something like that?

Vet requirements are not a problem IMO. When I played Kappatch I got my Volks to vet 4 relatively fast without any AI upgrade(most of the exp probably came from Pfaust hits though).

Don't you think Volks with Pfausts and AI upgrades like Flamethrowers or straight DPS upgrades are already viable enough. How can you make them even more viable?

Other OKW at options are IMO fine because they are supported by Schreckgrens.
As for Volks, in the AI department they already face similar problems as do conscripts in the lategame, ie. elite infantry (Shocks/Paras) or upgraded enemy mainline infantry (BARS, 1919s) walk all over them, turning them into little more than a meatshield/mp sink, while the actual AI damage dealing is done by Obers/Luchs.
3 Mp40s (!) like in Kappatch will not change that, at all. Its actually a downgrade, giving Volks less close range firepower than OH Pios and making them worse at all other ranges than in their status quo ante.
Flamethrowers might be a better idea, but I still dont see how this would amount to a solution. The problem is that the utility of Volks right now rests solely on Schrecks, and so does auxiliary AT for OKW. If you take them away without sweeping changes elsewhere, I am afraid its gonna break more than it'll fix.

imagine harder. it is completely viable and recommended at some points.

Its actually the worst thing you can do . Do you seriously buy an unit that cost 70 fuel, which is 91 fuel for the okw, to deal with early light vehicles like the m20? or do you tech up straight to tier 3 lock down a sector with the aa truck and get obers and a luchs who have infinite more impact then the early puma?

So early game puma is a stupid move. so what about mid and late game? a very brief window exist where the puma shines against lone medium tanks. but that window quickly evaporates as more units and at are deployed and its simply to frail to properly flank . so it need to hang back like the m10/m36 with its awesome 80 penetration.

If i see somebody buying a puma i say they are fucking nuts.

Other OKW at options are IMO fine because they are supported by Schreckgrens.
As for Volks, in the AI department they already face similar problems as do conscripts in the lategame, ie. elite infantry (Shocks/Paras) or upgraded enemy mainline infantry (BARS, 1919s) walk all over them, turning them into little more than a meatshield/mp sink, while the actual AI damage dealing is done by Obers/Luchs.
3 Mp40s (!) like in Kappatch will not change that, at all. Its actually a downgrade, giving Volks less close range firepower than OH Pios and making them worse at all other ranges than in their status quo ante.
Flamethrowers might be a better idea, but I still dont see how this would amount to a solution. The problem is that the utility of Volks right now rests solely on Schrecks, and so does auxiliary AT for OKW. If you take them away without sweeping changes elsewhere, I am afraid its gonna break more than it'll fix.

OKW AT options are Raketenwerfers, Pumas, JPIVs and Panthers. These units are fine ATM (apart from the Raketen) and will be fine because Volks would get Pfausts. I actually think that Pfausts are better support for these units than Shrecks because they slow them down and thus make them easier to kill.

Volks will never face similar problems as Conscripts. They have much better vet bonuses AND they would get some sort of AI upgrade. MP sink is a bit exxagerated if you look at 23MP to reinforce (20 for Cons, 30 for Grens).

I never said that the AI upgrade they got in the Kappatch was a good idea. I didn't like it at all.

I'd give Volks 2 AI upgrades:

1. 1x Flamethrower for 60MU
2. The Grenadier Kar98s for 60MU

I'm not sure whether Volks should be able to use both at the same time or not.

5 Grenadier Kars might be a bit too much DPS if you take the amazing vet bonuses into account.

First, I would make Grens a 5 man squad. Then I'd adjust the damage of Gren Kar98s so that the squad DPS doesn't change.

And then you could give Volks the same weapon as upgrade.

You could decide whether you want a 5 man Gren squad with much better vet bonuses and no further weapon upgrade OR a tool to clear houses.

I'd also play with the idea to give OKW 100% ammo income again.

what about decreasing range on Shreks that you can outmicro any shrek-only-at-armys? of course you gotta buff the Raketenwerfer, with something like less aim time/faster movement cause its smaller that usual AT guns. So shreks Units would just force tanks to stay on distance reducing their damage and protect the real AT from flanking it easily and circling around the gun.

Why not give Volks two Schrecks?

Its actually the worst thing you can do . Do you seriously buy an unit that cost 70 fuel, which is 91 fuel for the okw, to deal with early light vehicles like the m20? or do you tech up straight to tier 3 lock down a sector with the aa truck and get obers and a luchs who have infinite more impact then the early puma?

So early game puma is a stupid move. so what about mid and late game? a very brief window exist where the puma shines against lone medium tanks. but that window quickly evaporates as more units and at are deployed and its simply to frail to properly flank . so it need to hang back like the m10/m36 with its awesome 80 penetration.

If i see somebody buying a puma i say they are fucking nuts.

Puma counters medium tanks and it does this extremely well. It requires a bit of micro though so I understand that it may be off putting or simply too much to handle for some players. Getting Puma just to counter light armour is an overkill.

Also there is an opinion that racketen werfer is weak. It can't compete with regular AT gun but when use as a supplement to Volks with Shrecks or in buildings it becomes very decent in its role. I understand however there is no buildings on Steps.

Why not give Volks two Schrecks?

That's Kappatch, isn't it? Awesome

Puma counters medium tanks and it does this extremely well. It requires a bit of micro though so I understand that it may be off putting or simply too much to handle for some players. Getting Puma just to counter light armour is an overkill.

Also there is an opinion that racketen werfer is weak. It can't compete with regular AT gun but when use as a supplement to Volks with Shrecks or in buildings it becomes very decent in its role. I understand however there is no buildings on Steps.

Compare this unit to the m10 mate. it counters lone medium armor well. but its to fragile for flanking. late game this unit has no use.

and your statements racketen werfer is spot and shows how dependant okw is for volks shrek at.

Puma counters medium tanks and it does this extremely well. It requires a bit of micro though so I understand that it may be off putting or simply too much to handle for some players. Getting Puma just to counter light armour is an overkill.

Also there is an opinion that racketen werfer is weak. It can't compete with regular AT gun but when use as a supplement to Volks with Shrecks or in buildings it becomes very decent in its role. I understand however there is no buildings on Steps.

If your using a Puma to counter medium tanks, as in you got it to counter mediums then you are insane. The Puma's issue is not that is bad per say, it's just like Iv been saying again and again is that it just doesn't scale well for it's cost. Jacksons eat it alive, and if you fuck up microing it or it gets AT naded it can die pretty fast.

It call comes down to the same issue, as long as OKW has a fuel penalty people will -always- spam shreks, people will -never- get the Jadgpanzer, and taking away shreks will keeping the core of OKW the same is dumb as the whole faction is designed around the fuel penalty and on being very choosy with your tank build order.

You want to see less blobbing? You want to see less shrek spam? Then make it so you have alternatives, stop trying to shoe horn this dumb idea that OKW has these wealth of alternatives when they simply don't in competitive games.

Eventually all discussion on balancing OKW gets backed into the impenetrable wall of its core design.