Remove Shreck from Volks

Raktenwerfer: pure defensive unit that needs to be crammed into a building to be useful. it is useful defensively
JP4: niche defensive unit. very powerful as a defensive unit especially with FSJ fausts but does not function at all on the offensive
Puma: to low in penetration to be useful late game. as you need to flank units with it but as the game progresses and more units are deployed in the field it becomes harder and harder to pull of and you rather use it like a m10 or jackson. it cannot do so however as at long it only penetrates the t-34 half of the time.
Volks : They are crap and only become a decent meatshield when they reach vet 5. while its much easier for them to get to vet 5 this is not a given.

You do realize that you just described Jackson issues in late game? Puma has same chances to penetrate Sherman like Jackson to penetrate vetted Panther (not to mention KT or JT). Not to mention that Puma has smoke to escape and great vet ability.

Alexzandvar can I play you 1v1?
I don't care if I win or loose. We don't even have to make the replay public. I'd like to see how skilful player you are.

Alexzandvar can I play you 1v1?
I don't care if I win or loose. We don't even have to make the replay public. I'd like to see how skilful player you are.

Wow second challange in last 2 months. Guys, this is becoming verry interesting. First it was someone challanging Katitroll and now this. These games should really take place, and we should really see these replays. Not for trolling, just to see what is the skill level of the two players involved and how much weight their words bare. I am ready to honestly recognize and aplaud brains, calm and value, if I see it.

Wow second challange in last 2 months. Guys, this is becoming verry interesting. First it was someone challanging Katitroll and now this. These games should really take place, and we should really see these replays. Not for trolling, just to see what is the skill level of challangers and how much weight their words bare. I am ready to honestly recognize and aplaud brains, calm and value, if I see it.

Alexzanznzer would never reveal his player card so this will never happen.

Alexzandvar can I play you 1v1?
I don't care if I win or loose. We don't even have to make the replay public. I'd like to see how skilful player you are.

Is not it easier to reveal player card?
Cause one game can me missleading. I was able to win agasint top 100 but then lose to top 800 so 1 game is not going to show anything.

All I am gonna say is if you remove their shrecks then there is no point in making them as you can just make sturms

Answers in blue. You did not answer my question about how you blob with 4 volks. Why are you evading my questions?

I think you don't understand all factions have downsides for any choices you make, That's the fun of the game, paper.stone.cisor
Volks shreck spam/blob is the only strat overcoming its own downside. It doesn't reduce your IA power, it has greater AT power than expected and vet make it a beast late game coupled with Obers or Panther.
And all above that, volks are cheap to build and reinforce. It's a stone that has minium 50% chance to beat paper as well.

Your flowchart shows exactly this: A list of downsides from any choices you can make as OKW if you try to not play easy A-move.

Now you must understand that it is exactly the same for all factions, except that they don't have that AI-AT blob reliability all over the game duration. A blob of rifle is completely hard countered by a medium AI tank, same goes for a blob of cons/penal or even worst a blob of shock or para because the mp bleed is even worst.

Sov, USF and Ost factions can blob as OKW, on early game only, and need to transition mid game into more micro. OKW doesn't.
Does it make Sov, USF or Ost blob better? no, I agree with you in advance, but at least they are limited to low level of players and 10 minutes per game before losing all its potential.
I wouldn't care that much if volks blobs were as well limited to early game but right now, it is not the case.

You do realize that you just described Jackson issues in late game? Puma has same chances to penetrate Sherman like Jackson to penetrate vetted Panther (not to mention KT or JT). Not to mention that Puma has smoke to escape and great vet ability.

So what purpose does this derailment serve?
It does have these problems, yes I agree, yet it doesnt have any justifieable place in this discussion.

So what purpose does this derailment serve?
It does have these problems, yes I agree, yet it doesnt have any justifieable place in this discussion.

Point is that Axis warriors are complaining about how Jackson is great AT, how it can penetrate etc. while complaining about Puma's penetration.

Point is that Axis warriors are complaining about how Jackson is great AT,

Jackson is not such a great AT as it should be, and that's for real.

Alexzanznzer would never reveal his player card so this will never happen.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/viewBoard/0/steamid/76561198026003886

Wow second challange in last 2 months. Guys, this is becoming verry interesting. First it was someone challanging Katitroll and now this. These games should really take place, and we should really see these replays. Not for trolling, just to see what is the skill level of the two players involved and how much weight their words bare. I am ready to honestly recognize and aplaud brains, calm and value, if I see it.

Indeed, such duels could be a better way to prove your opinion than forum wars. I'd like to watch such matches, if it would be done in respectful way.

So what purpose does this derailment serve?
It does have these problems, yes I agree, yet it doesnt have any justifieable place in this discussion.

He is accusing Jaigen in having double standards in order to make his opinion to look less important and invalidate point that other OKW AT options are bad, so his own opinion (something should be done with volksschrek) would look more solid and unopposed.
Did I answered your question?

I wouldn't care that much if volks blobs were as well limited to early game but right now, it is not the case.

I certainly see your point.

Problematic is, in my opinion, that Volks are the worst basic infantry.
While conscripts get obsolete in the later stages of the game Volks are obsolete when they hit the field. Neither can they throw AT-Nades/Fausts nor do they have good grenades like the US ones, molotovs or the riflegrenade - which usually distincts basic infantry from each other - Furthermore thy dont have any other upgrade(except Schrecks) or any other special ability, may it be sprint to make them fill any other role than currently.
Lets compare...
They are worse than Conscripts statwise and lack the versatility of those, especially in the early stages of the game.
If we compare Volks and Cons, for the sake of argument and since they are the most comparable basic infantries, they serve no real purpose than (and only) to act as meatshield for OKW - the Panzerschreck is the saving grace for them, there is simply no other reason.

All that take the schreck away yadda yadda is pointless.
As a fix the T0 basic Infantry should be a "Sicherungsgruppe" with Panzerfaust and maybe better defensives (in cover like osts, bonus rec accuracy to compensate for bad offensive capabilities) for 240MP. While in T1 (Medic) there would be Volksgrenadiers for 280MP with a higher reinforce than currently and the regular schreck upgrade. Rework veterancy levels to make them better at using the schreck instead of boosting their combat per se.

^
just something I came up in 5 mins. some tweaking is surely neccissary

I certainly see your point.

Problematic is, in my opinion, that Volks are the worst basic infantry.
While conscripts get obsolete in the later stages of the game Volks are obsolete when they hit the field. Neither can they throw AT-Nades/Fausts nor do they have good grenades like the US ones, molotovs or the riflegrenade - which usually distincts basic infantry from each other - Furthermore thy dont have any other upgrade(except Schrecks) or any other special ability, may it be sprint to make them fill any other role than currently.
Lets compare...
They are worse than Conscripts statwise and lack the versatility of those, especially in the early stages of the game.
If we compare Volks and Cons, for the sake of argument and since they are the most comparable basic infantries, they serve no real purpose than (and only) to act as meatshield for OKW - the Panzerschreck is the saving grace for them, there is simply no other reason.

All that take the schreck away yadda yadda is pointless.
As a fix the T0 basic Infantry should be a "Sicherungsgruppe" with Panzerfaust and maybe better defensives (in cover like osts, bonus rec accuracy to compensate for bad offensive capabilities) for 240MP. While in T1 (Medic) there would be Volksgrenadiers for 280MP with a higher reinforce than currently and the regular schreck upgrade. Rework veterancy levels to make them better at using the schreck instead of boosting their combat per se.

^
just something I came up in 5 mins. some tweaking is surely neccissary

So buff their damage and give them a different non-shreck weapon upgrade. There we go problem solved in one sentence.

So buff their damage and give them a different non-shreck weapon upgrade. There we go problem solved in one sentence.

Yes and no, OKW direly needs at least a one time AT weapon to fend of vehicles then.
As in the current state puppchen is not an alternative.
Please care. USF does get the AV grenade at Vet1. Yet OH and OKW get vehicles out much later than the SOV clownscar or the WC51. A Panzerfaust will not make them obsolete but make the opponent have to use that vehicle a lot more carefully as of current

Ok, and why you are saying that without schrecks, volks wont be able to get vet5?
Is vet 5 something common like vet 3? I dont think so.
Does all OKW units should have chances to get vet 5? Not really in my opinion.
Volks can easily get vet2 or even 3. They can get even vet 4 and 5 without schrecks but it might take long and it's not certain.
Point is, you are comparing Volks vet 5 to Cons vet 3 or Rifles vet 3.
You want Volks vet 5 at the sime time ven Rifles have vet 3. That it's not best way to think of vet 5 I guess.
Vet 4&5 is a something extra and no one said you can get it in all games.

Yes and no, OKW direly needs at least a one time AT weapon to fend of vehicles then.
As in the current state puppchen is not an alternative.
Please care. USF does get the AV grenade at Vet1. Yet OH and OKW get vehicles out much later than the SOV clownscar or the WC51. A Panzerfaust will not make them obsolete but make the opponent have to use that vehicle a lot more carefully as of current

What about Kubelwagen?

I agree with you only if:
- early USF "Panzerfaust" isn't be locked behind doctrine
- early soviet "Panzerfaust" won't require resource investment in teching
- USF/soviet AT guns isn't locked behind one of teching options (kinda hard to deal with Flak HT and fast Luchs without it)

I think you are comparing oranges and apples here.
First of all Kubelwagen melts in the face of rifle fire and more so if there is a maxim - additionally it isnt such a threat to your units like a WC with its .50cal + riflesquad or the clowncar with flamethrower.
Germany (both factions) can not field such a unit as fast. The only thing is the Sd.Kfz.250 which is locked to 4cp (?IIRC). The other ones would be the 222 (a bit more armour but less hp than the kubel) and the luchs.

lets say each team hold 50% of the map and gets 26 fuel. OKW gets 17 fuel then. 40f starting = 1. tech + 80 fuel + 50fuel = 130fuel = 8 minutes when there is instant teching (due to the 2 mins on the trucks) and no other fuel spend.

The aim for the faust is not to kill the vehicle but to stop cheesy rushes. These are currently a no brainer - especially for SU vs OKW


NINJAEDIT:"USF/soviet AT guns isn't locked behind one of teching options (kinda hard to deal with Flak HT and fast Luchs without it)"

have you ever tried to counter the USF AA HT? Unless you already have a Puma up, or lure it into mines its slaughtering all OKW has left and right.

1- Volks get easily vet1 in less than 5 minutes, usually the 1st squad you'll give your shreck upgrade.
2- Volks are combined with Sturmpioneers, it is not like you only have volks to deal dps in the first 5 minutes. you want to up AI volks? nerfing sturmpioneers will automatically be the counterpart and so volks price will stronlgy increase while sturmpio will decrease.
3- Kubelwagon is a suppressive platform that scale every well with volks from T0. It is not like you don't have any suppressive platform from the 5 first minutes. Give a try to RE + rifle to understand what is an unreliable suppressive platform.
4- raketen is a ATgun available from T0, so unlike some other factions like USF, you always have a solution for an early hard AT deployment. USF need to go T3/80fuel investment to have something equal. So yes it takes time to aim and has no cover, but can be place in a building and retreat. I'm not really sure it would suit OKW faction to have a Atgun performing better but without retreat button and linked to a tiers building.

Now if your arguments are Light and medium vehicles are dying too fast compared to a volks shreck mob, that a problem of skill. And I guess your not going to improve if you continue to play like that. All factions are actually sharing this "issue". But the root cause is mainly the player.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/viewBoard/0/steamid/76561198026003886


Indeed, such duels could be a better way to prove your opinion than forum wars. I'd like to watch such matches, if it would be done in respectful way.


He is accusing Jaigen in having double standards in order to make his opinion to look less important and invalidate point that other OKW AT options are bad, so his own opinion (something should be done with volksschrek) would look more solid and unopposed.
Did I answered your question?

I don't think that's him.

I don't think that's him.

I fucking hope it is him, 3v3 axis hero lmao