Remove Shreck from Volks

Volks being the only OKW unit to actually ever reliably vet up is stupid and a problem not with Volks but the insane way the veterancy system works and the cost of OKW's units.

Volks are cheap infantry that vet up due to the fact they shoot at expensive things, the Stuka and Sturmtiger vet up slow as garden due to the fact they are very high fuel cost units shooting at only MP costing units (and the fact they don't do much damage killing infantry as they do hitting tanks).

Volks veterancy bonus's make them better against infantry by design, as Volks are garbage against enemy infantry till they receive vet. From a design standpoint the challenge is making Volk's scale more naturally with out making them even worse off when facing enemy infantry or more OP versus tanks.

I brought up my Sturmtiger use as a point that I don't enjoy the stale meta any more than the average person does which Is why I like to use rarely utilized units.

Exactly, so fix Volks by removing the shreck or making the unit become a tank hunter unit when they buy one, which could give them 2 shrecks for a higher amount but reduce severely their veterancy gains. The issue with the CoH2 engine is that units vet is balanced around either AI or AT... AI units tend to have lower Vet thresholds since what they are killing are worth less XP, whereas AT units threshold will be higher due to as you say the 'more expensive' units they shoot at.

CoH2 engine can't differentiate between the two, I.E a unit which is designed primarily for an AI role will vet extremely fast shooting at tanks.

The Volks vetting can't be fixed unless their design is changed, and lets be honest the current volks spam into vet5 shreck blob is boring... Making changes to their design and buffing their other counters (raketenwerfer) which in turn means if a US/Soviet player goes for a heavy medium tank build the OKW player can't just laugh as their army actually benefits from this as their blob slowly morphs into terminators and they actually have to counter it with puma/panther/jadgpanzer play rather than sit and wait till KT to yolo finish the game.

Exactly, so fix Volks by removing the shreck or making the unit become a tank hunter unit when they buy one, which could give them 2 shrecks for a higher amount but reduce severely their veterancy gains. The issue with the CoH2 engine is that units vet is balanced around either AI or AT... AI units tend to have lower Vet thresholds since what they are killing are worth less XP, whereas AT units threshold will be higher due to as you say the 'more expensive' units they shoot at.

CoH2 engine can't differentiate between the two, I.E a unit which is designed primarily for an AI role will vet extremely fast shooting at tanks.

The Volks vetting can't be fixed unless their design is changed, and lets be honest the current volks spam into vet5 shreck blob is boring... Making changes to their design and buffing their other counters (raketenwerfer) which in turn means if a US/Soviet player goes for a heavy medium tank build the OKW player can't just laugh as their army actually benefits from this as their blob slowly morphs into terminators and they actually have to counter it with puma/panther play rather than sit and wait till KT to yolo finish the game.

As Relic has said before taking away the shrek from Volk's would require a redesign of how OKW works, and while that is a good idea, they are probably never going to actually do that. And if your looking for them to get more than 1 shrek your going to make shrek blobs worse, not better.

The key to reducing Volk's spam is a increase in the amount of fuel based AT OKW has with a increase in the amount of MP OKW tanks cost while decreasing the fuel cost of said tanks. Ostheer cannot spam shreks because of the MP drain they have in making tanks/teching. Don't want shrek/volk spam? Give something for OKW to spend their MP on other than more fucking Volks.

As Relic has said before taking away the shrek from Volk's would require a redesign of how OKW works, and while that is a good idea, they are probably never going to actually do that. And if your looking for them to get more than 1 shrek your going to make shrek blobs worse, not better.

The key to reducing Volk's spam is a increase in the amount of fuel based AT OKW has with a increase in the amount of MP OKW tanks cost while decreasing the fuel cost of said tanks. Ostheer cannot spam shreks because of the MP drain they have in making tanks/teching. Don't want shrek/volk spam? Give something for OKW to spend their MP on other than more fucking Volks.

Or don't want shrek/volk spam? Don't give volks shrecks and buff their AT gun and reduce the cost of a Jadgpanzer.. I can throw better ideas around all day

Also, having a volks squad upgrade to 2 shrecks for a higher munition price and in turn heavily reduce their vet gains is far better then vet 5 terminator jack-of-all trade squads running around.

The fact OKW can fend off an entire faction inventory with just volks supported by some obers or a luch if they want to troll a US player then sit and wait for yolo KT is toxic.

Where have relic stated the comment around shrecks? Because in Alpha the sturm pio's had the shreck and they only removed that because it truely did make volks scale poorly. The design fix would have been to give volks an LMG/MP40/G43/new weapon upgrade instead - but this is Relic we are talking about, so let's just give their base infantry the best AT weapon in the game while forgetting about Vet inconsistencies and making them immune to cold #banterbus

Or don't want shrek/volk spam? Don't give volks shrecks and buff their AT gun and reduce the cost of a Jadgpanzer.. I can throw better ideas around all day

Also, having a volks squad upgrade to 2 shrecks for a higher munition price and in turn heavily reduce their vet gains is far better then vet 5 terminator jack-of-all trade squads running around.

The fact OKW can fend off an entire faction inventory with just volks supported by some obers or a luch if they want to troll a US player then sit and wait for yolo KT is toxic.

Where have relic stated the comment around shrecks? Because in Alpha the sturm pio's had the shreck and they only removed that because it truely did make volks scale poorly. The design fix would have been to give volks an LMG/MP40/G43/new weapon upgrade instead - but this is Relic we are talking about, so let's just give their base infantry the best AT weapon in the game while forgetting about Vet inconsistencies and making them immune to cold #banterbus

In almost every stream Relic does the question comes up and they give the same answer, OKW has no serious AT options till mid game, and with how fast Soviets/Americans can rush out medium and light tanks it is necessary for OKW to have reliable mobile AT.

And making volks have 2 shreks is just going to make the issue worse, not better as long as OKW has a MP float due to lack of spending options. What makes sense is giving OKW more AT options instead of the shittiest AT gun in the game while gating all other AT behind a high fuel cost in a fuel starved faction.

And if a player is trolling you with Volks/Luch/Ober which is countered by every medium generalist tank in the game with infantry following it I don't even know what the fuck. OKW has no AT snare outside of making Fallsch/Fussiliers, you can literally run him over and kill his Luchs.

If Relic can add new commanders, skins and DLC, I am sure they can add a "4 man Tank Buster squad with double shreks" (like COH1) in T0 (require tech to unlock) and make Volks like Coh1.

In almost every stream Relic does the question comes up and they give the same answer, OKW has no serious AT options till mid game, and with how fast Soviets/Americans can rush out medium and light tanks it is necessary for OKW to have reliable mobile AT.

And making volks have 2 shreks is just going to make the issue worse, not better as long as OKW has a MP float due to lack of spending options. What makes sense is giving OKW more AT options instead of the shittiest AT gun in the game while gating all other AT behind a high fuel cost in a fuel starved faction.

And if a player is trolling you with Volks/Luch/Ober which is countered by every medium generalist tank in the game with infantry following it I don't even know what the fuck. OKW has no AT snare outside of making Fallsch/Fussiliers, you can literally run him over and kill his Luchs.

No one has said remove shreck/nerf shreck and don't buff anything else. Shreck nerf/remove would come with a buff to their dedicated AT gun and price changes to other TD's/tanks. The meta is boring and stale and has to change and I strongly believe the next patch will bring good changes to that..

I'm currently playing OKW/Ostheer exclusively in 2's and the difference to allies is ridiculous. Less stressful, no counter play what so ever, my baseline build counters everything... amazing and versatile meta oh wait.

No one has said remove shreck/nerf shreck and don't buff anything else. Shreck nerf/remove would come with a buff to their dedicated AT gun and price changes to other TD's/tanks. The meta is boring and stale and has to change and I strongly believe the next patch will bring good changes to that..

I'm currently playing OKW/Ostheer exclusively in 2's and the difference to allies is ridiculous. Less stressful, no counter play what so ever, my baseline build counters everything... amazing and versatile meta oh wait.

In theory Volks/Obers/Panther counters everything, in reality, less so. Panther isn't going to let you deal with enemy infantry, and Obers are stupid easy to one shot with multiple things in the game.

Why do people pretend the Scott and 120 don't exist, I mean OKW's biggest weakness is lack of indirect fire. On urban maps you don't even need to make any extra units, just get inside a building and you win.

In theory Volks/Obers/Panther counters everything, in reality, less so.

Bullshit. they DO counter EVERYTHING

Bullshit. they DO counter EVERYTHING

Well, they don't counter planes and OKW players own stupidity(I'm talking about bads here, so calm your tits ladies).

Well, they don't counter planes and OKW players own stupidity(I'm talking about bads here, so calm your tits ladies).

Flak hq and base defenses handle planes. Not to mention a 40 fuel AA HT

Bullshit. they DO counter EVERYTHING

Like I said, in theory a Volks horde with shreks counters the medium and light armor, the Obers the infantry, and the Panther is their to provide AT support/snipe enemy tanks vehicles the less mobile Volks cannot get to.

In this hypothetical infantry horde you have around 5-6 Volks squad which is 36 pop cap, if your banking all your AI on Obers then that's about 3 which is 30 more pop cap (we are now at 66), adding in 1 Panther in we are now at 82 pop cap, which means you can build 1 more Panther if you want to, but not a KT.

And the cost of that army? 1410 MP for the 6 Volks, 1400 MP and 80 fuel for the Obers, and if we don't include the cost of the Schwer (because I put it in with the Obers) 490 MP and 175 fuel for the Panther. That's 3,300 MP and 255 fuel! That is a very big investment by that player, and those 400 MP each unit? Useless against tanks and die easier than Volks do to indirect fire. That 175 fuel unit? Useless against AT guns. Those Volks? Your going to need to pay 540 munitions to get those shreks out as early as you can! Hope you don't need to use any grenades any time soon!

The hole in that build is so giant I could drive an IS2 through it. Not to mention it's blood expensive when half your units can literally evaporate with out barely any warning.

The magic number is 4 shrecks. So you can 1 shot medium tanks with just one more real AT source.
120*4 (480) + 160 (PV-JPIV-Rak) = 640
Even though 3 shrecks is a sweet common number.

that only works if the opponent has 1, maybe 2 tanks though. also, the more schreck volks you have the more map control and nades you have and they don't vet well without schrecks. plus, 1 could miss. also, they snipe infantry and wreck buildings. really, just upgrade every volk with schrecks.

The Volks in their at role are the logical choice for OKW.

I made that beautiful flowchart.

(click on it to see it bigger) - dont be too harsh with this flowchart I made it in a few minutes lol.

fact is, the medic truck only offers good AT capabilites but no choice for anti infantry. The ISG cant hit a barn and the lack of a durable suppression platform (read HMG) in conjunction with the worst basic infantry in the game doesnt make compensating with basic infantry a reasonable choice.
Furthermore the Volks dont have a Faust or AT Nade to prevent vehicles fleeing. While OH can order a Faust and roll across the map with a vehicles or bring up its pak the enemy will have retreated when the JpZ4 arrives for OKW from the other side of the map.

The Volks in their at role are the logical choice for OKW.

I made that beautiful flowchart.

(click on it to see it bigger) - dont be too harsh with this flowchart I made it in a few minutes lol.

fact is, the medic truck only offers good AT capabilites but no choice for anti infantry. The ISG cant hit a barn and the lack of a durable suppression platform (read HMG) in conjunction with the worst basic infantry in the game doesnt make compensating with basic infantry a reasonable choice.
Furthermore the Volks dont have a Faust or AT Nade to prevent vehicles fleeing. While OH can order a Faust and roll across the map with a vehicles or bring up its pak the enemy will have retreated when the JpZ4 arrives for OKW from the other side of the map.

Interesting reasoning, it shows you are crap with anything that isn't A-move mob.

Interesting reasoning, it shows you are crap with anything that isn't A-move mob.

If you say so. But that was mean

On a second thought can you educate me how to effectivly a-move blob with 4 unvetted Volks(at most 1 on 1vet) and the first tech structure up? (I hardly get more than 4 volks at that point.)
I hazard a guess that even 2 rifles in green cover will take them apart. Implying the Volks are a-moved, so they are most likely on the open field without cover.

But if you are so into ad hominems, please, carry on. I deem it an pathetic approach and apart from discrediting yourself there is very little it will do.

best wishes

If you say so. But that was mean

On a second thought can you educate me how to effectivly a-move blob with 4 unvetted Volks(at most 1 on 1vet) and the first tech structure up? (I hardly get more than 4 volks at that point.)
I hazard a guess that even 2 rifles in green cover will take them apart. Implying the Volks are a-moved, so they are most likely on the open field without cover.

But if you are so into ad hominems, please, carry on. I deem it an pathetic approach and apart from discrediting yourself there is very little it will do.

best wishes

Ahaha, is it a joke?

You should give another look at your flowchart. It only says " every thing apart from spaming volks + shreck is crap" assume it is the only OKW strat not displayed in this "how to fail and lose with OKW" flowchart.
Early AT you can build from T0, no teching cost = crap and cost you too much MP
Mid/Late AT jagpanzer is crap because it's too much dedicated AT with little AI power.
Early/Mid AT Puma is almost crap because it requires micro "it cannot be everywhere..."
Naked volks (no shreck) is crap, don't gain vet and are not effective.

Ahaha, is it a joke?

You should give another look at your flowchart. It only says " every thing apart from spaming volks + shreck is crap" assume it is the only OKW strat not displayed in this "how to fail and lose with OKW" flowchart.
Early AT you can build from T0, no teching cost = crap and cost you too much MP
Mid/Late AT jagpanzer is crap because it's too much dedicated AT with little AI power.
Early/Mid AT Puma is almost crap because it requires micro "it cannot be everywhere..."
Naked volks (no shreck) is crap, don't gain vet and are not effective.

But it is the truth, go play some 1v1 OKW first before whining stuff you have no idea what's going on.

Early AT you can build from T0, no teching cost = crap and cost you too much MP
huge aimtime, bad accuracy, no shield to protect the crew. It is infact bad and its MP is better invested in either teching or another volk squad

Mid/Late AT jagpanzer is crap because it's too much dedicated AT with little AI power.
It is not about the JPZ but about the fact that with the medic truck you do not get any AI. Actually the flowchart does show that going for the mechanized is usually the better, more versatile approach

Early/Mid AT Puma is almost crap because it requires micro "it cannot be everywhere..."
It is not inherently bad. A lone clowncar let alone T-70 can wreck havoc amongst unupgraded volks and leave without fear of retaliation if the puma is not close by whereas at least OH does have the faust to threat it and forces people to play carefully

Naked volks (no shreck) is crap, don't gain vet and are not effective.
They are the worst basic infantry. Deny it all you want but it makes you look foolish.

Answers in blue. You did not answer my question about how you blob with 4 volks. Why are you evading my questions?

Ahaha, is it a joke?

You should give another look at your flowchart. It only says " every thing apart from spaming volks + shreck is crap" assume it is the only OKW strat not displayed in this "how to fail and lose with OKW" flowchart.
Early AT you can build from T0, no teching cost = crap and cost you too much MP
Mid/Late AT jagpanzer is crap because it's too much dedicated AT with little AI power.
Early/Mid AT Puma is almost crap because it requires micro "it cannot be everywhere..."
Naked volks (no shreck) is crap, don't gain vet and are not effective.

Raktenwerfer: pure defensive unit that needs to be crammed into a building to be useful. it is useful defensively
JP4: niche defensive unit. very powerful as a defensive unit especially with FSJ fausts but does not function at all on the offensive
Puma: to low in penetration to be useful late game. as you need to flank units with it but as the game progresses and more units are deployed in the field it becomes harder and harder to pull of and you rather use it like a m10 or jackson. it cannot do so however as at long it only penetrates the t-34 half of the time.
Volks : They are crap and only become a decent meatshield when they reach vet 5. while its much easier for them to get to vet 5 this is not a given.