Remove Shreck from Volks

I am not advocating of eliminating Shreks from the OKW at all, and yes Allies will always have more armor than Axis. The only viable option for Shrekblobs that eliminates Medium armor game play is to give to a 4 man squad such as the SturmPios. Its absurd to give a shrek upgrade to a 235MP mainline infantry (5 man squad) that can have insane vet bonuses, not to mention there are no MP shortage for the OKW.

The vet bonuses are just one issue. Sturms would also vet up relatively fast but at least they would have almost 0 AI capability and couldn't be spammed.

I am not advocating of eliminating Shreks from the OKW at all, and yes Allies will always have more armor than Axis. The only viable option for Shrekblobs that eliminates Medium armor game play is to give to a 4 man squad such as the SturmPios. Its absurd to give a shrek upgrade to a 235MP mainline infantry (5 man squad) that can have insane vet bonuses, not to mention there are no MP shortage for the OKW.

Im not pleased with shreks on volks either. but currently its vital for the okw to function. several other AT units need to be buffed if the SP get the shreks otherwise the okw lack the offensive punch it needs and have no good way in countering 85/e8 spam. and thats why i say buff the puma who is quite frankly under performing for cost.

MP reduction rate? Uhm...I think they both have a pop cap of 8.

Yes, you will probably need 2 Sturms but they're still 320MP less expensive and give you nice early game firepower.

The risk of getting wiped is higher, yes. That's good IMO. It means that you can't use them as mainline AT unit against full health tanks.

Raketenwerfers + Pzfausts + AT vehicles are your main AT units and shrecks are nothing more than support and should be used to protect other units from enemy armor rushes or to finish off almost dead tanks.

I see the point you're making. It might be my elo bracket but until my heavies roll out I can expect a USF player to push his zooks up front in a similar fashion as the volks do. As for shcrecks just being a simple support.. i think that is the issue atm, the rakten, lack of panzerfaust create a reliance of Schrecks and Puma until Panther. I personally build a rakten if i suspect clown car play or a greyhound/ the wc1 jeep as the 1 shreck you'd normally have will not cut it when it comes out.

P.S. I know the greyhound is 2 cp but some of us build mines so still wouldn't have two shrecks.

The shreks are way over powered it is insane that the fact is all they need are shrek mobs for AT and nothing else. Now take there shrek mobs and just sit them around a KT or panther for that matter and you want us to attack it with shermans? = instant death. The Shrek should be toned down to what the zook is. I think the zook is very well balanced the shrek is just too powerfull. And this nonsense that they have to have these over powered shreks is just funny. The rakenwerfer does just fine against medium tanks and jagpanzer also does great not to mention there god tanks which im fine with as they can be out smarted when they get out of position and flanked. okw players insist on just making shrek mobs because it counters any allied armor. Also the usf does not push with zooks early on we almost have to get bars to keep up with the okw inf dmg first which drains a lot of munitions leaving us few for zooks. I've never seen a panther or a tiger of any sort run from my riflemen with zooks or guards for that matter that would be the day but shrek mobs can stop us from pushing with our armor and they push us and there is not much we can do about it. They also get two of them to boot which gives them a fast fire rate. No way usf can afford the munitions to get double zooks plus they would loose too much dmg cause of it. By the time we have a sherman and e8's okw has plenty of panthers anyway which easily beat the sherman. Just tone down the shrek to equal of the zook it make perfect sense you will still have plenty of at capability with shreks equal to zooks although I know they would hate to loose there heat seeking hand cannons that makes it so easy for them to counter allied armor.

Im not pleased with shreks on volks either. but currently its vital for the okw to function. several other AT units need to be buffed if the SP get the shreks otherwise the okw lack the offensive punch it needs and have no good way in countering 85/e8 spam. and thats why i say buff the puma who is quite frankly under performing for cost.

The puma is overperforming for its cost. Just saying.

How are any of the OKW vehicles lacking 'offensive punch'?

The shreks are way over powered it is insane that the fact is all they need are shrek mobs for AT and nothing else. Now take there shrek mobs and just sit them around a KT or panther for that matter and you want us to attack it with shermans? = instant death. The Shrek should be toned down to what the zook is. I think the zook is very well balanced the shrek is just too powerfull. And this nonsense that they have to have these over powered shreks is just funny. The rakenwerfer does just fine against medium tanks and jagpanzer also does great not to mention there god tanks which im fine with as they can be out smarted when they get out of position and flanked. okw players insist on just making shrek mobs because it counters any allied armor. Also the usf does not push with zooks early on we almost have to get bars to keep up with the okw inf dmg first which drains a lot of munitions leaving us few for zooks. I've never seen a panther or a tiger of any sort run from my riflemen with zooks or guards for that matter that would be the day but shrek mobs can stop us from pushing with our armor and they push us and there is not much we can do about it. They also get two of them to boot which gives them a fast fire rate. No way usf can afford the munitions to get double zooks plus they would loose too much dmg cause of it. By the time we have a sherman and e8's okw has plenty of panthers anyway which easily beat the sherman. Just tone down the shrek to equal of the zook it make perfect sense you will still have plenty of at capability with shreks equal to zooks although I know they would hate to loose there heat seeking hand cannons that makes it so easy for them to counter allied armor.

Holy wall of text...Paragraphs, please.

Sorry old chap was venting a bit but for good reason. Would just like to also add that because of there over powered dmg of the shreks and fast fire rate it vets them extremely fast to the 5 vet unbeatable infantry which I think is also broken riflemen don't vet that fast with zooks.

The puma is overperforming for its cost. Just saying.

It costs 182 fuel, 66 for the truck and 116 for the puma. Numbers adjusted for reduced fuel income.

It really doesn't over preform for it's cost, sorry.

How are any of the OKW vehicles lacking 'offensive punch'?

You know their is a reason why you only see volks+obers+panther because other okw vehicles are sadly lacking. where to start? lets start with the puma.

Despite what speicalka said the puma is badly under performing and its only saving grace is that it comes somewhat early and thus useful to early vehicles and perhaps early medium tanks that are not supported by infantry. the truth however is that greatly lacking the penetration value compared to the m10 making it a rather bad medium tank hunter.

then their is flacktrack. this unit was a bit under performing before the 4 second setup nerf and the fuel cost increase from 45 to 55. now take one look at the usf track who only cost 5 fuel more but has 2.5 times the damage output and is mobile.

JP4. a niche defensive unit. the lack of on demand snares like at nades requires you to extensively babysit this unit with shrek volks. its suicidal to use this unit offensively.

The P4 Ausf J is also horrible for the time it comes into the game, and it worse than the Osther Panzer IV but costs more due to the reduced fuel income of OKW.

It costs 182 fuel, 66 for the truck and 116 for the puma. Numbers adjusted for reduced fuel income.

- I thought we were over this entire "adjusted fuel income" thing. If Relic wanted for OKW vehicles to be effective based on their adjusted fuel cost, then what is the point of fuel penalty in the first place? If that was the case, an OKW Panther would be 50% better than the equally priced Ostheer Panther. It isn't. Case closed.

- When you factor in salvage, resource conversion and lowest teching in the game, OKW's fuel penalty isn't really that severe. It just serves to reduce the number of armoured units hitting the field.

- Why would you include the teching price in the cost effectiveness of a single unit? In what universe does that make sense? A T34 costs 280 fuel by that logic - it better be equal to a Tiger then!

- Just to nitpick. It's 60, not 66 adjusted fuel cost for the truck.

- I thought we were over this entire "adjusted fuel income" thing. If Relic wanted for OKW vehicles to be effective based on their adjusted fuel cost, then what is the point of fuel penalty in the first place? If that was the case, an OKW Panther would be 50% better than the equally priced Ostheer Panther. It isn't. Case closed.

- When you factor in salvage, resource conversion and lowest teching in the game, OKW's fuel penalty isn't really that severe. It just serves to reduce the number of armoured units hitting the field.

- Why would you include the teching price in the cost effectiveness of a single unit? In what universe does that make sense? A T34 costs 280 fuel by that logic - it better be equal to a Tiger then!

-Just to nitpick. It's 60, not 66 adjusted fuel cost for the truck.

-Soviets teching system is dumb, I'm not defending it. It's the reason the current call in meta exists

-Resource conversion is only a late game option, you need your fuel for teching early game and your munitions for shreks

-The point of the reduced fuel income is to make is so OKW have less tanks on the field and what tanks they do have are normally very good at their job. For instance the Sturmtiger is very good at blob killing, as is the P2. The OKW Panther is better than the Ostheer one, but costs less due to teching. And the KT requires all converted trucks which is a big fuel investment alone.

The point is that as OKW your reduced fuel income means you have to be choosy, which is why you see a lot of saving until panther/KT rather than more use of the t1 and t2 units. Blowing all your fuel and delaying your teching can be life or death, Soviets and USF can afford to lose tanks far more than OKW can.

I wasn't really discussing Soviet teching (although God knows I am tired of Company of Callins). If we were discussing the time that Puma hits the field, then it is totally okay to use these sorts of calculations and conversions. You could say it comes out at 165 fuel mark (for other factions).

I am not sure if I would say Puma is overperforming for cost or not but in the context of this thread the point is OKW has pretty good anti-vehicle and anti-tank options in every single tier. If a player opts to save up for a KT or a Panther instead, that is their choice, Puma should not get to be better because off it.

Personally, I would like it if the meta shifted a bit more towards mediums and light vehicles. That way Pumas would get more time to shine.

In 4v4s especially, a 12 minute Panther is perfectly possible for OKW, so why get a Puma at minute 7?

I am not sure if I would say Puma is overperforming for cost or not but in the context of this thread the point is OKW has pretty good anti-vehicle and anti-tank options in every single tier. If a player opts to save up for a KT or a Panther instead, that is their choice, Puma should not get to be better because off it.

The thing is however that the okw basically consist out several very good units that are borderline over performing and several units that are thrash and a some are niche but very effective in their own right. currently the okw is absolutely dependant on shrek volks to counter medium armour. people simply cannot say oh put them on sp's. that is not going to work . you need to buff several aspects of their at if yo want to nerf the shreks this badly.

It costs 182 fuel, 66 for the truck and 116 for the puma. Numbers adjusted for reduced fuel income.

It really doesn't over preform for it's cost, sorry.

Salvaging vehicles and weapon teams gives bonus fuel, start sector is not reduced to 2/3 income, they start with enough fuel to build their first truck (so the first tech choice is essentially free), and the truck that builds the puma allows you to rush it by sacrificing munitions.

The extremely cheap nature of teching and options for supplementary fuel income mean that it's not the case that you can multiply fuel costs by 1.5, and you definitely can't multiply the fuel costs of the fuel you get for free at the start.

The OKW has to earn 70 additional fuel to construct the puma on top of what they start with. Assuming no salvage or conversion, that means earning the adjusted equivalent of 105 fuel (actually slightly less because base sector not reduced). OKW's starting fuel being quite generous and their teching being so cheap means that the first vehicle they get out can be purchased very quickly, often before the Wehrmacht equivalent, and at a time when they can have a real impact on the flow of the game.

Salvaging vehicles and weapon teams gives bonus fuel, start sector is not reduced to 2/3 income, they start with enough fuel to build their first truck (so the first tech choice is essentially free), and the truck that builds the puma allows you to rush it by sacrificing munitions.

The extremely cheap nature of teching and options for supplementary fuel income mean that it's not the case that you can multiply fuel costs by 1.5, and you definitely can't multiply the fuel costs of the fuel you get for free at the start.

The OKW has to earn 70 additional fuel to construct the puma on top of what they start with. Assuming no salvage or conversion, that means earning the adjusted equivalent of 105 fuel (actually slightly less because base sector not reduced). OKW's starting fuel being quite generous and their teching being so cheap means that the first vehicle they get out can be purchased very quickly, often before the Wehrmacht equivalent, and at a time when they can have a real impact on the flow of the game.

The point is not how quickly it can come out, the point is that it's fuel better spent on other things. A Puma just doesn't have the same staying power or impact as other things you could get with it. For 30 fuel more you can get a stuka, and for only 55 you can get a perfect counter to early game scout car/infantry rushes.

how about remove schrecks from volks and give them x4 STG44 upgrade? it would be a cool idea i think.

The thing is however that the okw basically consist out several very good units that are borderline over performing and several units that are thrash and a some are niche but very effective in their own right. currently the okw is absolutely dependant on shrek volks to counter medium armour. people simply cannot say oh put them on sp's. that is not going to work . you need to buff several aspects of their at if yo want to nerf the shreks this badly.

this a thousand times this. Want to really see how much of a crutch shcrecks are? Play a game as okw with only 1-2 shrecks or none at all. You will see why most players get more than 2 every game vs investing in raktens and pumas as mainline at.

Wow, you guys came out with new meta game - Puma is underperforming.

How can anyone be treated seriously after this kind of statement.