Suggestion to LMG change

What do you think would happen if you lowered LMG damage, removed fire on the move for those that have it and added a small suppression to them, perhaps with a setup time of half a second or so. The suppression should not be close to the HMG value but still large enough to be dangerous. I'm thinking maybe a squad without cover could be suppressed in 5 or 10 seconds and squads in green cover would not be suppressed at all. Perhaps to balance it you could decrease movement speed with squads with an LMG a bit to make them not so mobile.

How i think it would turn out it would make LMG squads more of a support squad and not a pure AI terminator killing machine. It would promote cover-play and flanking and if the suppress radius is big enough, completely shut down blobbing. The biggest problem i can see is still keeping the HMGs relevant. I think this can be done by perhaps increasing damage or penetration to make them effective against light vehicles or maybe adding more suppression to HMGs to make them more of an area denial instead of the "area annoyance" they are today.

What are your thoughts on this?

Edit: And of course Obers should buy their LMGs like everyone else.

no no and more no. As soon as they start supressing as intended ppl will cry op. And then they will get nerfed and it will be just as bad as the mg42.

Why should they buy just like everyone else when they dont have the income of everyone else? That's the whole point of this horribly designed faction.

hmgs for axis are not relevant, more of a small nusiance for allies than anything, I agree.

I do agree with lowering damage and removing fire on the move, but suppression is a big no IMO. Because it will become a completely new mechanic and A LOT of problems will occur. Look at the disaster of "defensive stance" on rifle blobs.

We don't need to compensate, all LMGs specially LMG34 and M1919 need nerfs. This would also be a huge nerf for ubers which is needed.

As soon as they start supressing as intended ppl will cry op.

Are you saying you think the suppression mechanic makes units overpowered? Are rear echelons overpowered? Isn't this just a matter of balance? Of tweaking the suppression value of a unit?

Why should they buy just like everyone else when they dont have the income of everyone else?

Because they are horribly overpowered and you can literally swim in munitions if you use the mechanized HQ to convert your fuel.

I'd limit suggested changes to removing fire on the move or GREATLY reducing fire on the move accuracy.

Do you guys think having to stop to fire would end blobbing and LMG effectiveness? I am not so sure about this.

I think blobs partly is an effect of LMG effectiveness. You cannot compete squad to squad with an LMG and you need to blob up your infantry to be able to take on LMG squads. I think adding some new mechanics is needed for this game to develop and thrive. Todays mechanics favor blobbing and stale meta and this is what drives people away. I don't think new mechanics is something bad, on the contrary, i think they are essential. They just need to be thoroughly thought out and tested before implementation.

And what do you think suppression on LMGs would favor? Blobbing LMGs, of course.

If it takes 10 seconds for one LMG to suppress a squad, then it takes less than 2.5 seconds for 4 LMGs to suppress a squad. So it always pays off to blob with them.

You're just trading raw damage for another way of taking out enemy units out of the fight with your LMG blobs.

Someone already forgot why M1919 for infantry doctrine for USF was nerfed into the ground and made more expensive and less effective then LMG42.

And what do you think suppression on LMGs would favor? Blobbing LMGs, of course.

If it takes 10 seconds for one LMG to suppress a squad, then it takes less than 2.5 seconds for 4 LMGs to suppress a squad. So it always pays off to blob with them.

You're just trading raw damage for another way of taking out enemy units out of the fight with your LMG blobs.

Wouldn't this be very easy to counter though? 4 squads standing still and shooting at an infantry squad without killing it is very easy to flank with a light vehicle, a close combat squad or a flamer for example.

Someone already forgot why M1919 for infantry doctrine for USF was nerfed into the ground and made more expensive and less effective then LMG42.

I don't care for your tone Katitof. You are so incredibly rude in almost every post i have read from you. If you can't discuss this as an adult i'd prefer you not address me at all.

Wouldn't this be very easy to counter though? 4 squads standing still and shooting at an infantry squad without killing it is very easy to flank with a light vehicle, a close combat squad or a flamer for example.

No close combat squad will ever get close to the LMG blob because they'll just suppress them as they show up. And even if your suppression LMG is set to do 0 damage you still have the other weapons in the squad doing damage.

Not every faction has light vehicles capable of doing anything to a blob of infantry, soviets and ostheer namely. M3, 222 and 251 simply lack the armor and damage output to actually be a threat to multiple units in one place.

No close combat squad will ever get close to the LMG blob because they'll just suppress them as they show up. And even if your suppression LMG is set to do 0 damage you still have the other weapons in the squad doing damage.

Not every faction has light vehicles capable of doing anything to a blob of infantry, soviets and ostheer namely. M3, 222 and 251 simply lack the armor and damage output to actually be a threat to multiple units in one place.

What i meant was if the LMG blob is suppressing one squad on one part of the field you can move in with squads from other parts. They cannot suppress everyone at once. This is what i meant with flanking.

I respect your knowledge of the game. How do you propose LMG's should be tweaked to not be the no-brainer, go-to solution in AI combat it is today? Or are you happy with how it is?

@GuyFromTheSky
If you consider that rude, then I suggest visiting a therapist or psychologist as you clearly have sensitivity issues.

What you are suggesting was already in game and guess what it led to?
HUGE BLOBS a-moving and suppressing everything.

Its completely pointless for you to even argue that, because we already had that and it proved to be batshit OP.

@GuyFromTheSky
If you consider that rude, then I suggest visiting a therapist or psychologist as you clearly have sensitivity issues.

This is exactly what i'm talking about. You have no idea about my history with psychologists and the fact that you say these things to a complete stranger is mind boggling to me. This has happened before but on the official forum. I was saying something about how i couldn't afford to pay for DLC and you started hammering down on me like i was your sworn enemy and mocking me for being poor and saying i "shouldn't have gotten kids" if i didn't have money etc. Your attitude was the reason i stopped going to the official forums. Can't you see how statements like these can be seen as very mean and hurtful?

To continue on topic,

What you are suggesting was already in game and guess what it led to?
HUGE BLOBS a-moving and suppressing everything.

Its completely pointless for you to even argue that, because we already had that and it proved to be batshit OP.

I took a break from the game between last january/february and this november/december so i had no idea that had been a problem. If you would have just said this and explained what the problem was in your first post like an adult instead of giving me an attitude and trying to make me look stupid, you would have come out as a much more helpful and mature person.

Would you mind explaining to me in a polite tone what the problem was and how they nerfed it?

Let's make LMG more realistic.

Close combat - around 30-20, medium range 19-10, long range 9-1 -on the move, but once set up, 30/18/16.

Of course with LMG nerf so 1 LMG can't inflict 25dps, and no more double LMGs on one squad.

@GuyFromTheSky
If you consider that rude, then I suggest visiting a therapist or psychologist as you clearly have sensitivity issues.

I didn't consider your first post in this thread to be that rude, although it was far from constructive, but this is rude.

I thought that the Gren LMG does not fire on the move, only the Obers can. Am i wrong?

I thought that the Gren LMG does not fire on the move, only the Obers can. Am i wrong?

Obers and paras can fire on the move.

This is exactly what i'm talking about. You have no idea about my history with psychologists and the fact that you say these things to a complete stranger is mind boggling to me. This has happened before but on the official forum. I was saying something about how i couldn't afford to pay for DLC and you started hammering down on me like i was your sworn enemy and mocking me for being poor and saying i "shouldn't have gotten kids" if i didn't have money etc. Your attitude was the reason i stopped going to the official forums. Can't you see how statements like these can be seen as very mean and hurtful?

In this case you're excused(still should've read some patch notes to set yourself on track).
And yes, I'm fully aware of the way I post and I really try to fight that. Developed that as a self defense to keep myself sane when posting in threads where lolcake, sierra, cannonade or jaigen are active and yes, I'm aware that innocents are sometimes in the arc of fire.

I took a break from the game between last january/february and this november/december so i had no idea that had been a problem. If you would have just said this and explained what the problem was in your first post like an adult instead of giving me an attitude and trying to make me look stupid, you would have come out as a much more helpful and mature person.

Would you mind explaining to me in a polite tone what the problem was and how they nerfed it?

Long story short:
USF LMGs(doctrinal ones) could suppress really well when you used defensive stance but still had tiny suppression value attached to them, that resulted in a situation Cruzz explained-the more LMGs around, the more effective the suppression, the bigger your blob.

It was fixed by completely removing the suppression from LMGs outside of def stance and increasing their cost even thou they were weaker then axis LMGs yet ended up costing more while still being doctrina.

Thats pretty much whole story-powerful debuffs on easy to use units=blob to the hearts content.

Okay, so what about lowering damage significantly but adding a "volley fire" (a la Rear Echelon) for all LMGs (for a small munitions cost, only active while standing still). That would not make you insta-supress all squads with a huge LMG blob…

I still think some kind of suppression dynamic is a good way to tackle blob-meta.

I understand that this opinion may be unpopular but I belive that what we need to ballance LMGs is to make them realistic. What I mean is that LMG should be as awkward to use as PTRS. In order to shoot soldier should stay in cover or lay on the ground, then set up the bipod (faster than tripod but still you have to find position for it), aim and then shoot one, maybe even quite long and accurate burst. And no matter the range, if enemy is standing still in front of LMG, it should be able to kill him quickly, but if the enemy is moving it should have major problems on close and mid range as it will not be able to shoot.

So, what needs to be done is:
1. Making set up and aim time for LMGs much longer (similar to PTRS)
2. Making the cone of fire before resetup much smaller.
3. Possibly giving LMGs it's short range dps back as it will still not be able to use it effectively and it is quite stupid how weak it is against enemies standing in front of them laughing.

This way lmg blob will have no point as it will be easily killed by short range units. The usage of LMGs will still be effective but only with good positioning and spread formation (to acheive cross fire). And last but not the least LMG will act like real LMG, and it is really important for people who like minimum of realism and for those who base their decisions not only on coh knowledge but also warfare knowledge.