Axis heavy armor needs nerf or Allied AT needs buffs

Zis has 10 less Pen than pak. You count on that? Tiger has 300 armor at the same cost. Kt is not an issue. It is slow as fuck, especially the turret, and costs a fortune+ teching costs. It is basically a slower Is2 with a better gun.

Also Axis units do NOT have that much more penetration. As I said 10 more on the ATG, but a lot less on the tiger compared to IS2. Try Elephant yourself. It is pretty bad since its like a mobile pak43 that costs a lot of fuel and is too slow, especial rotating. OKW has a crappy atgun. Only problem is the shreckblob lategame here. Pak43 is easily countered by offmap, so this is utter bullshit. Panther has weak AI while IS2 is an allrounder. Stop being biased and play both factions and you will understand. In 2v2 and up Allies have the upper hand in higher skilled dimensions. I agree that axis are easier to a move than allies, but if you can not micro your jacksons with is2s in front then you suck ,sorry.

Zis has 10 less Pen than pak. You count on that? Tiger has 300 armor at the same cost. Kt is not an issue. It is slow as fuck, especially the turret, and costs a fortune+ teching costs. It is basically a slower Is2 with a better gun.

Also Axis units do NOT have that much more penetration. As I said 10 more on the ATG, but a lot less on the tiger compared to IS2. Try Elephant yourself. It is pretty bad since its like a mobile pak43 that costs a lot of fuel and is too slow, especial rotating. OKW has a crappy atgun. Only problem is the shreckblob lategame here. Pak43 is easily countered by offmap, so this is utter bullshit. Panther has weak AI while IS2 is an allrounder. Stop being biased and play both factions and you will understand. In 2v2 and up Allies have the upper hand in higher skilled dimensions. I agree that axis are easier to a move than allies, but if you can not micro your jacksons with is2s in front then you suck ,sorry.

Check my playcard and say one more time Im nor playing both factions

So, OKW and OST have non-doc Panthers, schrecks, King Tiger, 2 useful doctrines with Elephant, Jadgtiger and few doctrines with Pak43.
What Allies have? 1 useful doctrine with IS2, 2 doctrines with ISU which no one uses right now, RNG Jackson and shitty zooks.
Pak40 is a way better than ZiS.
So Allies have worse AT option and yet have to face better tanks.

Check my playcard and say one more time Im nor playing both factions

So, OKW and OST have non-doc Panthers, schrecks, King Tiger, 2 useful doctrines with Elephant, Jadgtiger and few doctrines with Pak43.
What Allies have? 1 useful doctrine with IS2, 2 doctrines with ISU which no one uses right now, RNG Jackson and shitty zooks.
Pak40 is a way better than ZiS.
So Allies have worse AT option and yet have to face better tanks.

I checked your playercard and saw that you should not talk about balance, sorry.

Listen to higher skilled players. Ask for example ciez, who plays both sides in 2v2 AT.

Temperature is rising here....please cool it a little, guys

Back to topic

I checked your playercard and saw that you should not talk about balance, sorry.

Listen to higher skilled players. Ask for example ciez, who plays both sides in 2v2 AT.

Said guy who has played 98 as Soviets & 18 as USF vs 230 as OKW (I see you have troubles with 4v4 as OKW)& 242 as OST
And what about AT games? Axis all day long
And Im the one who play one faction
_____________
So You are denying mu statement that OKW nad OST have better and more AT late-game options?
So you want to say that units with 380, 440 and 550 penetration are useless?
B4 is easily countered by off map so I think B4 it's not any issue at all.

Try to use 3 Jacksons at once of map with many building or forest. Try to flank King Tiger, kill it and escape before schrecks wreck you.
I assure you that due to shit pathfinding, low hp and useless armor you will lose you Jackson on such maps, unless you face enemy who does not keep Pak/Raketen/Schreck close to monster units.
IS2+Jackson are useless against decent opponent if they face Elephant or Jadgtiger.

By the way, Elephnat is amazing unit.
It's a great game-breaker unit but still not OP.

Major, Sir, please be like football referee who likes sometimes aggressive football so he does not show yellow/red cards for small tackles

Check my playcard and say one more time Im nor playing both factions

So, OKW and OST have non-doc Panthers, schrecks, King Tiger, 2 useful doctrines with Elephant, Jadgtiger and few doctrines with Pak43.
What Allies have? 1 useful doctrine with IS2, 2 doctrines with ISU which no one uses right now, RNG Jackson and shitty zooks.
Pak40 is a way better than ZiS.
So Allies have worse AT option and yet have to face better tanks.

Allies have the better medium and AI tanks the axis the okw (not ostheer) have better TD. not that the okw has any mediums tanks safe callins. the allies medium tanks do struggle against dedicated TD's but at the same if your tanks get wiped out you still have a chance to recover as the TD can do nothing to your infantry.

p.s. : l2p if you ar elosing you vehicles no shreks/puchpen.

Allies have the better medium and AI tanks the axis the okw (not ostheer) have better TD. not that the okw has any mediums tanks safe callins. the allies medium tanks do struggle against dedicated TD's but at the same if your tanks get wiped out you still have a chance to recover as the TD can do nothing to your infantry.

p.s. : l2p if you ar elosing you vehicles no shreks/puchpen.

So Allied tanks that should destory Axis inf are countered by Axis tanks which are countered only by micro-intensive spam?
Seems fair


Im still waiting for your pro replay. Please show me one where you are not losing flanking Jackson due to schrecks blob. Im waiting for that!

Can we get some attention to ju-87 strafe runs in Lighting Doctrine? For 200 ammo it killing t34 and su85 in 1(one) strafe. Or it's seems fair?

or the 23mm IL2 strike that kills maybe 2 men out of a whole squad in one whole strike. its like shooting paintballs on the enemy.

Im still waiting for your pro replay. Please show me one where you are not losing flanking Jackson due to schrecks blob. Im waiting for that!

I support that.
He excused himself from giving out his playercard because he said more people are playing on it.

So show us a pro replay of your own play you seem to be so proud of.
Show us you are good or at least above average Jaigen before calling out L2P on anyone.
Unless your still all bark no bite puppy.

So Allied tanks that should destory Axis inf are countered by Axis tanks which are countered only by micro-intensive spam?
Seems fair

Indeed it is fair because allied infantry based AT counter said TD's because they dont have any AI at all. So it boils down to , you guessed it! : combined arms. the fact that you lost an aa track to shreks basically tells me everything i need to know how your tacs are.

Indeed it is fair because allied infantry based AT counter said TD's because they dont have any AI at all. So it boils down to , you guessed it! : combined arms. the fact that you lost an aa track to shreks basically tells me everything i need to know how your tacs are.

Show us oh supreme commander how do you skillfully PTRS/zooka down panthers and jagdtigers or be silent for ever.

More thoughts on the current topic


SU85
THe SU85 tickles anything above a Tiger. It is actually pretty amazing at vet 3, but the lack of any survivability (in terms of health, armor, speed, rotation) means that you will still have to babysit it. It moves like a boat on land; its maneuverability is less than desired.

Jackson
Has great burst damage and potential and can work versus Panthers and Tigers. However, as the USFs' final defense against German armor, this unit is fairly lackluster. It is helpless versus King Tigers and Jagdtigers. WHen the vet ability bounces off Panthers and King Tigers, prepare for a bad day.

ISU
The mighty Zveroboy's AP rounds can bounce off Panthers. It is really good against infantry, but even this powerful unit cannot stand up against Jagdtigers and King Tigers. It is frustrating when this mighty unit barely scratches Axis heavy tanks. The unit itself would really be fine on any other faction, but the lack of heavy AT for the Allies makes this unit a crutch. It isn't a sturdy crutch either.

The Discrepancy Between Allied and Axis Tanks

Other than tank on tank performance, i think the way the pop cap and how units are priced is detrimental to Allied armour as well. These imbalances between Axis and Allied AT wouldn't be bad if you could make MORE tanks (obviously stats would need to be changed but u get my point). I realize this is a game based on company/platoon sized confrontations of it would be a little weird to have a ton of tanks, but i think some changes need to be done.

A good start would be reducing the pop cap on some Allied units like the officer units of the USF. Hon3ynuts has a great post about this on page one. This can help out the Allies armor game more without fundamentally altering the game.

Comments on the Power Levels of Allied and Axis
I feel like the following statements have merit in 1v1 and 2v2 playstyles as well.

Simply put, the Axis late game advantage is way too strong or the Allies have it too weak. Now i don't want to encourage power creep, so it's probably OKW that has a too powerful late game. The Ostheer, Soviet, and USF forces have late game armor that is relatively balanced in comparison with each other (SOviets have great call-ins but their heavier options can be stopped by the Elefant). The OKW add an even stronger late game armor presence to the game. When USF, Ostheer, and Soviet armor is fairly balanced, the King Tigers and Jagdtigers really disturb this fine line.

It is also unreasonable to say, like some people on this forum have said that "if you let OKW get King Tiger it is your fault" or "you let Axis get to late game, you deserve to lose". When 4v4 game modes regularly go past 20 minutes, the statements made by these forum posters are unrealistic and idiotic. Playing Allies is a real challenge' you have to win at EVERY stage of the game because the Axis have such a significant snowball effect. As Axis, it is possible to lose in the early game, as long as you have some units and VPs to work with. "comebacks" are not a rarity because the tanks you get late game are potent and outclass any Allied AT weaponry on the field.

I remember the ret*rd from Relic speaking about frustation for the guys victim of the Soviet Guards Button, when your tank could not move for 3sec, so they nerfed it.

What about the frustration of evade smoke and blitzkrieg...?

KT is too strong, need lower armor a bit

Others are fine, but blitz + smoke, it's insane

Blitz should cost 60 ammo, Smoke 80. AT LEAST

Most OP abilities ever.

Oh and ... yea, remove the smoke ability from the Tiger Ace commander...

I remember the ret*rd from Relic speaking about frustation for the guys victim of the Soviet Guards Button, when your tank could not move for 3sec, so they nerfed it.

What about the frustration of evade smoke and blitzkrieg...?

KT is too strong, need lower armor a bit

Others are fine, but blitz + smoke, it's insane

Blitz should cost 60 ammo, Smoke 80. AT LEAST

Most OP abilities ever.

Oh and ... yea, remove the smoke ability from the Tiger Ace commander...

Don't be too harsh.

KT is strong and should be.
Front armor is fine, only wiping potenial is too big. It needs bigger scatter.
It's penetration problem for Allies. Jackson should have 260-240-220 if it's so fragile.
Blitz should be used only when moving forward. It should not work while reversing.
Smoke is OP. More hp, bigger armor and still need smoke... Insane. Smoke should be reserved for fast and fragile units like Puma or M10, not for Tigers and Panthers...

......

I think, relic should buff the su85, which is a core tank and the problem would solve heavy tanks in the Soviet side.
It is easier this. This affects the lower tank axis, but like the Panther the same function on the lower allies tanks.


And ATnades axis and allies should be more likely to cause critical damage on heavy tanks. Which one shot can kill most of a squad.

as someone else first mentioned, i think pop cap of allied tanks matters a lot.

it just makes out producing german tanks pretty much impossible unless you lose infantry. especially 3v3+

.............

Major, Sir, please be like football referee who likes sometimes aggressive football so he does not show yellow/red cards for small tackles

Off topic: Sorry, but Rugby was my game. You respect the ref, or take consequences. It's that easy.

sometimes aggressive football so he does not show yellow/red cards for small tackles

Talk of 'contact' in footy is...frankly..wussy...If you guys played soccer rules according to the ref, there would be a better game (IMO).

But we are well off topic

I think, relic should buff the su85, which is a core tank and the problem would solve heavy tanks in the Soviet side.
It is easier this. This affects the lower tank axis, but like the Panther the same function on the lower allies tanks.

In my opinion every single medium turretless should receive a 25-35 % rotation speed buff. right now they are to clunky

buffing the su-85 would be terrible because we'd be back to the days of Vs or nothing. su-85s are already quite effective against medium tanks and the OKH t3 in general. the only change you could make to the su-85 that would be a massive nerf to OKH t3 would be some kind of small survivability or utility buff, which wouldn't help against heavier tanks. it also does nothing for the soviet t3, which sucks against heavy tanks right now.

my personal preference is to buff the close range pen of most or all AT weapons by quite a bit so you can at least get a guaranteed (or nearly) pen from nearby to encourage flanking. it would also make the M-42 useful against tanks bigger than a lusch.